Florida Concealed Carry banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,227 Posts
I've seen this before.

What I found interesting (and perhaps quite relevant) is that the defender closed his eyes when initiating the disarm. Every time. A flinch of sorts, likely due to the expected shot.

I submit that closing his eyes reduces his chances of success.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,431 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
To my semi-trained eye, his success rate went up a lot when he put more effort into getting out of the path of the bullet. More bend, more movement, more success. Not a very happy conclusion for an old guy with arthritis.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,780 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,227 Posts
Also, I submit that the scenarios are a bit contrived... Hollywood-inspired, perhaps.

For example, the gun to the back of the head, or even the straight on gun at nearly point blank range to the head or chest... just standing there, perfectly straight.

I think in the real world, the BG is going to be moving / fidgeting / gesturing a bit (or a lot)... and probably not that close to his victim.

I've never seen surveillance video of an actual hold up with the static postures represented in this video (or other similar demonstration videos). A real hold-up / robbery is much more dynamic.

So, fun to watch, but not realistic, IMO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,431 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I think you are probably right about most real scenarios. If I was going to hold someone at gunpoint, I certainly wouldn’t get so close as to negate one of the primary advantages a firearm gives me, the ability to inflict injury at a distance. Still, there are stupid crooks out there, lots of them, whose only training is what they’ve seen on tv or at the movies.
But then, iIf I recall correctly, Fairbairn taught all the disarms shown in his book, All in Fighting, so perhaps we are mistaken as to their utility.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,492 Posts
.34 seconds defender has hand on gun, has not off line of muzzle, hence he gets shot. Poor execution and incorrect steps taken with expected result.

.37 seconds, even better visual of not getting off line first.

.43 seconds, hand on gun, still not off line--same mistake as the first attempt

.45 seconds, better visual/angle of hand just touching gun, hasn't moved off line.

.59 seconds, hasn't moved off line of the muzzle, hand close to touching gun, same mistake over and over with the same expected results

1:09, the shooter hesitated to pull the trigger, defender still not making the disarms properly

1:17, that trap of the gun is overly complicated and thus prone to failure

1:38, hands have started to move, but again, he's not getting his head off the line of the muzzle first, thus he gets shot.

1:56, failed to get head off line of muzzle first, gets shot

2:10, gets his head off line of muzzle first, successful

The rest of the video is just more of the same fails for the same reason he fails in the previous attempts. In order for a successful disarm

1. Get off line of muzzle
2. move hand to gun
3. move gun to their inside [ move to their outside ]
4. several follow ups can be applied to finish the disarm

Here's why getting off line of the muzzle is always first. If the defender misses the gun grab, when the gun goes off it's a miss, take it from there.

What's the take away from the above OP vid and my own? GET OFF THE LINE OF THE MUZZLE FIRST. In reality, the get off line and hand moving to gun are not two steps, it's one performed simultaneously. When you been trained properly and had sufficient time to gain the proprioception [ very little time is required ], you have the confidence to let someone use a real firearm with real ammo. Ya, it's a little over the top, the mentors however, were adamant you were willing to make the move under real conditions [ had the gnads to make the move ] and the proper order of disarming correct.

From the time I start to move till the gun goes off in the editor is exactly .20 seconds. In that time, I'm off line and have touched the gun, he still couldn't shoot me. He KNEW I was going to make the attempt, anyone on the street would not be expecting you to move thus they wouldn't have that .20 second reaction time.

The OP's observation that he did better when he got off line is spot on and the most important first step to success in this endeavor
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,492 Posts
Also, I submit that the scenarios are a bit contrived... Hollywood-inspired, perhaps.

For example, the gun to the back of the head, or even the straight on gun at nearly point blank range to the head or chest... just standing there, perfectly straight.

I think in the real world, the BG is going to be moving / fidgeting / gesturing a bit (or a lot)... and probably not that close to his victim.

I've never seen surveillance video of an actual hold up with the static postures represented in this video (or other similar demonstration videos). A real hold-up / robbery is much more dynamic.

So, fun to watch, but not realistic, IMO.
All good observations, however in the two real world disarms I made on the streets, neither was dancing around/fidgeting. If I can reach out and touch the gun, you lose, whether you're fidgeting around or not. :grin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,492 Posts
This one, with my hands to my side going for the disarm gun to head takes me .36 seconds to move gun off line of my head and have trapped the gun with both hands. The added time is due to my hands being at my side, unlike the OP video where they start with hands up, close to the gun. Let me put my hands that close to the gun to my head, you're asking to lose. Notice move one getting off line of muzzle and moving the hands to the gun happen at the same time, not step one, step two.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,227 Posts
All good observations, however in the two real world disarms I made on the streets, neither was dancing around/fidgeting. If I can reach out and touch the gun, you lose, whether you're fidgeting around or not. :grin
I bet you kept your eyes open, too. :)

Did you see his eyes closing in that video? Any comments about that?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,227 Posts
This one, with my hands to my side going for the disarm gun to head takes me .36 seconds to move gun off line of my head and have trapped the gun with both hands. The added time is due to my hands being at my side, unlike the OP video where they start with hands up, close to the gun. Let me put my hands that close to the gun to my head, you're asking to lose. Notice move one getting off line of muzzle and moving the hands to the gun happen at the same time, not step one, step two.

I got to be that victim at your Threat Focused course during one of the breaks! :grin 'member? We used my SIRT laser pistol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,492 Posts
I got to be that victim at your Threat Focused course during one of the breaks! :grin 'member? We used my SIRT laser pistol.
I do remember sir, you ended up like every other victim who's threatened me with a handgun :grin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54,492 Posts
I bet you kept your eyes open, too. :)

Did you see his eyes closing in that video? Any comments about that?
Two reason likely

He's not a gun guy
He closed his eyes to pray

:grin

- - - Updated - - -

If you don't get off the line, you lose...
And that video proved it over and over again :thumsup
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,227 Posts
I do remember sir, you ended up like every other victim who's threatened me with a handgun :grin
LOL! I sure did! I became one with the ground!
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
27,108 Posts
. . .

In order for a successful disarm

1. Get off line of muzzle
2. move hand to gun
3. move gun to their inside [ move to their outside ]
4. several follow ups can be applied to finish the disarm


Here's why getting off line of the muzzle is always first. If the defender misses the gun grab, when the gun goes off it's a miss, take it from there.

What's the take away from the above OP vid and my own? GET OFF THE LINE OF THE MUZZLE FIRST. In reality, the get off line and hand moving to gun are not two steps, it's one performed simultaneously.

. . .

The OP's observation that he did better when he got off line is spot on and the most important first step to success in this endeavor
My apologies for being late in commenting on this thread, but here's an observation solely focused on the so called "conclusions" reported in the OP video. Those "conclusions" seem to be focused on the relative chances of evading the shot between the state of the gun being single vs. double action. This may have been interesting to them from an academic viewpoint, but in a practical sense it doesn't inform the defender one bit in attempting to evade the shot and disarm the attacker. Does the state of the gun [single vs. double action] change the steps brownie outlined in post #7? Not one bit! :doh

That fact also further illustrates gandrfab's point that the video is not much more than a commercial for clothing. Maybe their clothing would be less expensive if they reduced their overhead by eliminating costs for conducting bs tests with bs "conclusions."
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top