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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)
I've seen shooters at the range turn 180 degrees and pointing the gun RIGHT at their friend's chest with the finger on the trigger. In one such incident, I stopped and pointed it out, asking him to return the firearm to the bench, pointing downrange. It was not received well. Dude had an attitude, "It's not loaded." He had just finished firing it. Then pointed it DIRECTLY at his buddy.

It was dumb luck that he didn't shoot and kill his friend. He violated ALL the rules.
 
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Yes... it's pure luck that those who shot the walls, ceiling, and bench didn't happen to be pointing the gun at themselves or another human.

You implied that these morons intentionally disregarded only 1 or 2 of the four rules (you said three, but I know of four). In reality, they were disregarding ALL the rules (whether it be 3 or 4). Pure luck they didn't shoot themselves or another person.

Pure dumb luck. These idiots aren't following ANY of the rules. They just got "lucky" when they didn't hurt themselves or another person.
I was referring to the 3 Rules of Safe Gun Handling. Not sure about number 4.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I was referring to the 3 Rules of Safe Gun Handling. Not sure about number 4.
  1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule.
  4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I would just to "thank" everyone here for helping to justify my recent purchase of level IIIa body armor! :)

And yes, I will wear this to the range.
I've considered it. Though, the protection is limited.
 

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  1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule.
  4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.
These are the three I observe, and teach.

Blue Icon of a Firearm Pointed in a Safe Direction

ALWAYS Keep The Gun Pointed In A Safe Direction
This is the primary rule of gun safety. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.
Blue Icon of Finger Off The Trigger

ALWAYS Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Ready To Shoot
When holding a gun, rest your finger alongside the frame and outside the trigger guard. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.
Blue Icon of an Unloaded Shotgun

ALWAYS Keep The Gun Unloaded Until Ready To Use
If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.
 

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I've seen shooters at the range turn 180 degrees and pointing the gun RIGHT at their friend's chest with the finger on the trigger. In one such incident, I stopped and pointed it out, asking him to return the firearm to the bench, pointing downrange. It was not received well. Dude had an attitude, "It's not loaded." He had just finished firing it. Then pointed it DIRECTLY at his buddy.

It was dumb luck that he didn't shoot and kill his friend. He violated ALL the rules.
Missed this earlier...

You're much too kind.
I might have hollered out "Cease Fire - Cease Fire!" and then called the RSO over for a little discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
ALWAYS Keep The Gun Unloaded Until Ready To Use
If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.
Yeah... depending on your definition of "ready to use," I going to disagree with this one. For at least a couple of reasons.

First, "keeping a gun unloaded until it's 'ready' for use" may lead some to ignore the first rule I posted, which is TREAT ALL GUNS AS IF ARE LOADED. If they assume it's not loaded... 'cuz why would it be, since it's not "ready to use." Bad things can happen.

If I'm going to treat all guns as if they are loaded, then they might as well be loaded, eh? And, in fact, most of my guns ARE loaded. Because they SHOULD be loaded. And, I treat them as such (rule #1), because I know they're loaded!

So what is "ready to use??" Ready RIGHT NOW? As in I'm going to shoot RIGHT NOW? Sorry... I really disagree with that concept. "Hold on a sec, Mr. Bad Guy. Since I'm NOW ready to use my gun, give me a sec to load it. OK?"

So, yeah... many of my guns are not intended for immediate use. But, in the event I DO need to immediately use them, chances are I won't have time to load them. Therefore they are loaded.

For that matter, my concealed carry "EDC" is not planned for use.... ever, if my luck holds out. But, it's loaded.
 
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I was shooting my then new 10/22 Breakdown at Gun World in Deerfield with my then 14 y/o son a few years ago and a mom and her late teenage son were in the lane immediately to my right with a 9mm handgun. They seemed to be pretty much novices with handguns so I was watching them very closely. Sure enough, when the son experienced a malfunction (looked like limp-wristing to me) and immediately pointed his muzzle the the left to try and clear the malfunction, almost muzzling me and my son in the process. If I'd not briskly backed us both away from the table he would have and I sternly told them to please keep the muzzle pointed down range and if they need to look at the gun to clear a malfunction "turn the body, not the gun!" That got the RSO's attention and he went over to investigate. He help them clear the handgun, reviewed the rules of safe gun handling, and I even heard him reiterate what I'd told the mom and son, to turn the body, not the gun! Shortly thereafter when it happened a second time and I yanked my son rearward more forcefully, getting the RSOs attention again, he went over to mom and son and said they needed some good training on safe gun handling, but were done for the day and had to leave.

The two other people in the OP video were standing immediately to the left of the man inappropriately handling his pistol in clear violation of the ranges rules and every rule of safe gun handling. The outcome of his gross negligence was totally predictable and thankfully no one died! Had they been on his right, at least the woman would likely have only heard the shot and not suffered a gunshot wound, too.

I hate being on the left side of a square range because I have to spend as much or more time watching the shooters in the lanes to my right as I do shooting. Of course, if there are lefty shooters in the lanes to my left, the problem is reversed but only about 13-15% of the population is left handed. 🤠
 

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Yeah... depending on your definition of "ready to use," I going to disagree with this one. For at least a couple of reasons.

First, "keeping a gun unloaded until it's 'ready' for use" may lead some to ignore the first rule I posted, which is TREAT ALL GUNS AS IF ARE LOADED. If they assume it's not loaded... 'cuz why would it be, since it's not "ready to use." Bad things can happen.

If I'm going to treat all guns as if they are loaded, then they might as well be loaded, eh? And, in fact, most of my guns ARE loaded. Because they SHOULD be loaded. And, I treat them as such (rule #1), because I know they're loaded!

So what is "ready to use??" Ready RIGHT NOW? As in I'm going to shoot RIGHT NOW? Sorry... I really disagree with that concept. "Hold on a sec, Mr. Bad Guy. Since I'm NOW ready to use my gun, give me a sec to load it. OK?"

So, yeah... many of my guns are not intended for immediate use. But, in the event I DO need to immediately use them, chances are I won't have time to load them. Therefore they are loaded.

For that matter, my concealed carry "EDC" is not planned for use.... ever, if my luck holds out. But, it's loaded.
Not sure what you're getting at in the first sentence of yellow text (my emphasis added). The bolded yellow sentence is not describing a completely "ready to use" firearm IF you have to "load and make ready," which I presume you're describing something like the Israeli chamber empty method of carry. For most of us, our EDC guns are carried "ready to use" with a loaded mag inserted, one loaded in the chamber. For those of you carrying striker-fired guns, all that is then required is to overcome the safety mechanisms to fire a round. For us 1911 carriers, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is on (Condition 1).
 
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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Not sure what you're getting at in the first sentence of yellow text (my emphasis added). The bolded yellow sentence is not describing a completely "ready to use" firearm IF you have to "load and make ready," which I presume you're describing something like the Israeli chamber empty method of carry.
"Ready to use" - If I am to take it literally (is there any other way, if it's not defined in the rule?)... means READY to USE. NOW.

I wasn't referring to "Israeli (empty chamber) carry" at all. Not part of the conversation. That's a whole OTHER discussion.

By "loaded," I mean LOADED... which includes a round in the chamber.

Either a gun is "ready to use," which means ready to fire... or it's not. If the rule is implying that ready to use means ready to use NOW, then I disagree. If it means keeping a gun unloaded until ready to fire RFN, then I disagree categorically.
 

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The I think I see what your getting at but I also think you're arguing semantics. I've always been taught, have taught, and always understood that for an EDC gun, "ready to use" means ready to use RFN, but for any other situation, "ready to use" means you're at the range, and when the range is hot, "load and make ready." I don't overthink it. :unsure:

ETA: This in the context of NRA's 3 rules of firearms safety. However, if one uses the other version of the rules of firearms safety as you stated in post #23, which echo the rules defined in this link:
Rule One:
Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

Rule Two:
Point your firearms in a safe direction — one where an unintentional discharge will cause NO HUMAN INJURY and, at most, minor property damage. AKA “the laser rule”.

Rule Three:
Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard, indexed along the frame or slide until you are on target and have decided to fire.

Rule Four:
Be sure of your target/threat, backstop, and beyond.
 
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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
The I think I see what your getting at but I also think you're arguing semantics. I've always been taught, have taught, and always understood that for an EDC gun, "ready to use" means ready to use RFN, but for any other situation, "ready to use" means you're at the range, and when the range is hot, "load and make ready." I don't overthink it. :unsure:
What about home defense guns?
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
The I think I see what your getting at but I also think you're arguing semantics.
Semantics matter when crafting "cardinal rules."
 
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Semantics matter when crafting "cardinal rules."
You quoted the "4 cardinal rules of firearm safety" used by virtually every one besides the NRA, which expresses the rules of firearms safety a little differently. I'm not disagreeing with you at all with the preference for the version I included in the updated post #32. Mike_1956 was quoting the NRA's rules of firearms safety, which are expressed a little differently but in application are virtually the same if one can accept and use the amplified definition of "Ready to Use" for EDC guns in NRA's version. When teaching an NRA course, I used the NRA's rules. However, when I taught outside of NRA, I used the 4 Cardinal Rules you quoted. :unsure:
 
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...if one can accept and use the amplified definition of "Ready to Use"...
Seems to me that if the definition needs to be "amplified" (and/or explained) then that needs to be a part of the rule. If the rule requires you to make assumptions about how it might be different in different situations, then it's not really a very good rule.

I like the four rules. Then you don't have to make assumptions, or do any amplification, about whether or not it is loaded. You simply treat every gun as if it is loaded -- always.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Seems to me that if the definition needs to be "amplified" (and/or explained) then that needs to be a part of the rule. If the rule requires you to make assumptions about how it might be different in different situations, then it's not really a very good rule.

I like the four rules. Then you don't have to make assumptions, or do any amplification, about whether or not it is loaded. You simply treat every gun as if it is loaded -- always.
Bingo! I took the NRA Instructor course. And, I felt the same way back then, but I dared not question it in the context of the class (out of respect). Plus, my opinion didn't and wouldn't mean squat.

The NRA people were also peculiarly obsessed with referring to "firearms" and not "weapons." To be fair, in terms of "optics," I get that.
 
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If its in my holster, in my pocket, or in my hand on the firing line, it's ready to use. If it's anywhere else, it's unloaded.

Hope that clears things up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
If its in my holster, in my pocket, or in my hand on the firing line, it's ready to use. If it's anywhere else, it's unloaded.

Hope that clears things up.
I've got several guns in safes that are loaded and chambered.
 
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