[Shark1007]

OHEng

Thanks for the explanation, that’s kind of what I always believed. I just didn’t want to jump into an argument that would last until 9 mm ammo is back down to $.11 a round or obsolete. I’m certainly not right every single time and appreciate learning things from you and others as life moves forward.

 

[Anduril]

Don't we currently have a voter's license (voter's registration card)? Isn't it free to the voter?

So many cynical answers:

1.) It's free to vote.
But if you want your vote to count, then that costs money.

2.) If you vote five times in a single election, how much is "free divided by five"?

3.) Dead people vote. How much money do they have?

4.) Yes. Voter registration cards are free.
But they are printed on very thin paper.

5.) Wait. You need a voter registration card to vote!?

 

[Silliz]

So many cynical answers:

1.) It's free to vote.
But if you want your vote to count, then that costs money.

2.) If you vote five times in a single election, how much is "free divided by five"?

3.) Dead people vote. How much money do they have?

4.) Yes. Voter registration cards are free.
But they are printed on very thin paper.

5.) Wait. You need a voter registration card to vote!?

My point is, if I exercise my right to vote, the state pays all the processing of applications...etc, but to bear a firearm, (also a right) I have to pay for the license.

 

[10x]

Maybe because issuing those licenses has a cost and is not free? Computers, printers, scanners, materials, staff... if the recipients of the license shouldn't have to pay for them, who should?

From a different perspective, we have a right to free speech, so if I wanted to go and protest outside a government agency, should I demand Office Depot just give me the materials I need to make a picket sign in order to exercise that right, or should I expect to fork over a few of my own dollars for cardboard and markers?

My polling place is 1.4 miles from my home. Who is supposed to pick up my gasoline expenses for that round trip on election day, or must I walk it?

These are state employees that get paid by tax dollars which some comes from state gun and ammo sales etc. The cc license fee is just another steal from the state. I am pretty sure the dept of agriculture receives state tax dollars.

 

[10x]

Honestly, I'm quite surprised at this coming from you.

There should be no LICENSE AT ALL. It's not that there is a fee. It's that there is a license to assert and practice our Constitutional Rights. A license to be armed is akin to a license to vote or a license to exercise Free Speech.

No... they shouldn't have to pay expenses involved in exercising those Rights. So, yeah... the gov't shouldn't have to supply our guns or our protest posters. But, we shouldn't have to pay the GOV'T for PERMISSION to buy and carry a gun... or a sign in a protest.

A fee for a license to exercise a Right is no different than a poll tax.

Bingo! ^^^^^^^

 

[ZO6Vettever]

I don't think I am in favor of "Constitutional Carry." I think some proof of completion of a basic safety course should at least be required. Don't hate me but really guys, there are enough Bozo's out there that are downright dangerous.

 

[MPDC66]

I don't think I am in favor of "Constitutional Carry." I think some proof of completion of a basic safety course should at least be required. Don't hate me but really guys, there are enough Bozo's out there that are downright dangerous.

. Problem is, who makes the standard? Fine while conservatives are in power, obstacles could appear if progressives get the power.

 

[Riverpigusmc]

I think a course on government should be required to vote..or a course in journalism to be able to write your opinion..see where I'm going with this?

 

[mike1956]

All sounds great and I’d be all for it if it didn’t come with the unintended consequences of signage carrying weight of the law. Don’t think you will get one without the other.

We had Constitutional Carry in force-of-law Ohio signed in April, in effect since June. No new signs, no blood in the streets, and no more ineptitude on display with those carrying. In short, a big nothing-burger.

 

[mike1956]

I don't think I am in favor of "Constitutional Carry." I think some proof of completion of a basic safety course should at least be required. Don't hate me but really guys, there are enough Bozo's out there that are downright dangerous.

No worse than Dunning Kruger guys who take their NRA Basic Pistol course and suddenly become pistoleros.

 

[mike1956]

. Problem is, who makes the standard? Fine while conservatives are in power, obstacles could appear if progressives get the power.

Those who know nothing about guns, and those who profit from training.

 

[BeerHunter]

No worse than Dunning Kruger guys who take their NRA Basic Pistol course and suddenly become pistoleros.

But not "Enlightened" Pistoleros! 🤪

 

[joecarry]

We had Constitutional Carry in force-of-law Ohio signed in April, in effect since June. No new signs, no blood in the streets, and no more ineptitude on display with those carrying. In short, a big nothing-burger.

Why don’t you ask Radtek what happened recently in Texas (of all places) where he lives when they got constitutional carry and the signage carrying weight of the law that soon followed.

He’s talked about it on here before. The signage has effectively disarmed the citizens while out in public. He also mentioned the criminals are watching for armed citizens to walk up to enter a store, see the sign and then walk back to disarm to be in compliance. Their vehicle is either broken into and their gun stolen or they get robbed as the crooks knows they are unarmed as they just watch them disarm after seeing the sign.

No thanks. I like signage being a “suggestion” for me to consider when I walk right in the store or mall.

YMMV

 

[mike1956]

Why don’t you ask Radtek what happened recently in Texas (of all places) where he lives when they got constitutional carry and the signage carrying weight of the law that soon followed.

He’s talked about it on here before. The signage has effectively disarmed the citizens while out in public. He also mentioned the criminals are watching for armed citizens to walk up to enter a store, see the sign and then walk back to disarm to be in compliance. Their vehicle is either broken into and their gun stolen or they get robbed as the crooks knows they are unarmed as they just watch them disarm after seeing the sign.

No thanks. I like signage being a “suggestion” for me to consider when I walk right in the store or mall.

YMMV

Texas is a universe unto itself.

Here is a brief history of concealed carry in Ohio:

Made illegal for private citizens in 1859, making it an official No Issue state, a status it would maintain until 2004. Open carry has always been legal, but severely restricted (vehicle transport, private property, vague legalese in the statute) and very seldom seen;

In 2004, we finally went from No Issue to Shall Issue. Lots of poison pill amendments in the legislation, many of which have been corrected in the years since;

Part of shall issue included force of law for gunbuster signs. Many appeared soon after shall issue went into effect, and nearly all have disappeared in the ensuing years. I live in a county of 65,000 people, and know of two private businesses that are currently posted. Stores and malls, not posted;

We went from Shall Issue to Constitutional Carry earlier this year. As far as I can tell, no new gunbuster signs posted;

The charge for carrying past a gunbuster sign at a private business is misdemeanor trespass. I know of no one personally who has ever been charged with it.

Like I said, nothingburger.

 

[joecarry]

Good for you and Ohio and it being a nothingburger. I don’t think Radtek would say in Texas it’s a nothingburger. I’m quite certain that the retail federation and the mouse would demand signage carry weight of the law in Florida and that wouldn’t be nothingburger for Floridians who carry

Glad Ohio’s laws are working out for you but don’t think we would be as fortunate.

YMMV.

 

[RadTek]

Try roaming around a metroplex like the Dalllas/Ft Worth area.

I’m not saying signs are everywhere. Unfortunately, unless it’s a place you know, you won’t know if there’s a sign until you get to the door. You’re then faced with 3 choices; Go home, walk back to your car to leave it unattended or Ignore the sign and risk it

Now, in most cases, if I understand correctly, violating a sign is generally a Class C Misdemeanor. A $200 fine and no impact on your license. I don’t know what the penalty for UNLICENSED carry is since it doesn’t apply to me.

Like you, I‘m not aware of anyone who has been fined. Those kind of encounters
typically start with the offender being asked to leave. Like Florida, refusing to comply gets more messy.

The problem is to be “law abiding“ means exactly that. So, if one wants to try to be as abiding as possible, your freedom to carry, constitutional or not, is curtailed by signage. Especially since I prefer to NOT leave my gun in the car. So, when I know I’m headed somewhere I know is posted, say the medical center my monthly doctor is in, I have to go out that day unarmed.

When constitutional carry passed recently, those signs populated like Catholic rabbits. As time has gone, I’m not seeing that trend hold. In fact, I’ve noticed a few businesses that have removed the signs. We can only speculate why.

The chief point is this…in Florida, signs mean diddly. IMHO, you really want to keep it that way.

 

[mike1956]

Try roaming around a metroplex like the Dalllas/Ft Worth area.

I’m not saying signs are everywhere. Unfortunately, unless it’s a place you know, you won’t know if there’s a sign until you get to the door. You’re then faced with 3 choices; Go home, walk back to your car to leave it unattended or Ignore the sign and risk it

Now, in most cases, if I understand correctly, violating a sign is generally a Class C Misdemeanor. A $200 fine and no impact on your license. I don’t know what the penalty for UNLICENSED carry is since it doesn’t apply to me.

Like you, I‘m not aware of anyone who has been fined. Those kind of encounters
typically start with the offender being asked to leave. Like Florida, refusing to comply gets more messy.

The problem is to be “law abiding“ means exactly that. So, if one wants to try to be as abiding as possible, your freedom to carry, constitutional or not, is curtailed by signage. Especially since I prefer to NOT leave my gun in the car. So, when I know I’m headed somewhere I know is posted, say the medical center my monthly doctor is in, I have to go out that day unarmed.

When constitutional carry passed recently, those signs populated like Catholic rabbits. As time has gone, I’m not seeing that trend hold. In fact, I’ve noticed a few businesses that have removed the signs. We can only speculate why.

The chief point is this…in Florida, signs mean diddly. IMHO, you really want to keep it that way.

Texas and Ohio laws on signage penalties appear to be similar. "Law abiding" isn't something I generally get too jammed up on, particularly when discussing misdemeanors.

 

[RadTek]

I guess for me the difference is I try to avoid willfully breaking the law. No matter how minor the penalty.

 

[FfNJGTFO]

I guess for me the difference is I try to avoid willfully breaking the law. No matter how minor the penalty.

Precisely the theory behind "Obedience." The motivation is "fear..." the fear of the consequences if you don't obey. After all, why would you obey if you didn't want to and you didn't fear the consequences?

Although, in some cases, it becomes a "risk/benefit" calculation. Is "not obeying" worth risk of facing the consequences? Not that you fear the consequences but, simply, is the benefit of not obeying worth the risk?

Now, you might say, Well, I obey because it's the "right thing to do..." (i.e. moral values, etc.). I don't consider that "obedience." You're not motivated by fear. I consider that "respect for the morals" a positive recognition/regard for what's right vs what's wrong.

I know I discussed all of this (Respect vs. Obedience) in a previous thread, but I can't seem to find it...

 

[mike1956]

I guess for me the difference is I try to avoid willfully breaking the law. No matter how minor the penalty.

Do you obey immoral laws?