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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I carry a Glock30 with FMJ 165gr Federal. I've read that JHP would probably be an overkill for .45 and its not needed for stopping power. Yet, I also see JHP are more effective and I'm considering switching over to JHP. What do you think about carrying a Glock .45 with JHP as to FMJ? Recommonded or not? And whats with .45 GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) ammo? Should I be buying GAP ammo? Whats the difference in recoil (if any)? Thanx
 

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There is no such thing as 'overkill' when it comes to pistol cartridges...they are all inherently underpowered for the task of stopping humans.

The difference in so-called "stopping power" between hollow points in 9mm, 40 S&W and .45 ACP is statistically insignificant...however, the difference in effectiveness between JHPs and FMJ ammo of even the same caliber is significant.

While .45 ACP ball ammo is probably the most effective FMJ cartridge, you can still increase potential stopping power by going to a quality JHP cartridge (my personal favorite in this caliber is the 230 gr. Hydra-Shok); plus, it can reduce the risk of overpenetration, if that's a concern for you.

If you insist on using ball ammo, I would recommend 230, 200 or 185 grs. over lighter loads (I didn't know they even made .45 ACP FMJ loads as light as 165 grs.)

And .45 GAP is a completely different caliber; it is not interchangeable with .45 ACP.
 

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I've read that JHP would probably be an overkill for .45 and its not needed for stopping power.

Can you provide the source of this information? I've never heard this theory before by anyone who has a modicum of knowledge on ballistics.

I carry a Glock30 with FMJ 165gr Federal

A poor choice, maybe the poorest choice IMO. In ball, carry the 230 grain bullets. I don't mind carrying 230 ball and at times I have and not ever worried about what it would do for me should I need to use it in defense. In fact, at times I still carry 230 ball with confidence it will do it's job well.

JHP's are a better choice most of the time, but not all JHP's are created equal either [ in any caliber ]. In the case of 165 grain ball vs any heavier hollow point, the HP gets the nod as well, the 165 grainers are that bad at reliable deep penetration.

You are never guaranteed expansion, but you can pick rds that give adequate penetration. The heavier the bullet, the better the penetration overall in any caliber.

I'd suggest Fed HST 230; Speer Gold dot 230; or Win Ranger T 230 in non +P guise, and not in any particular order above, they'll all do the job well if you get em on the torso.

Brownie
 

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Any current premium JHP will serve you better than any FMJ.

There was a time when even the best JHP ammo didn't expand reliably. Those days have passed. Great advances have been made in the last 20 years. These days, no company makes a bad JHP in its "premium self-defense" line.

Personally, when I carry a .45, it's loaded with DPX +P 185 gr ammo. But I'd be happy with Federal or Winchester or Remington premium ammo in 185, 200 or 230 gr. They'll all do the job and do it better than FMJ.
 

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Got in a habit over 30yrs ago of loading Odd/Even..all odd numbers are JHP all even numbers are FMJ...still do it to this day in every gun and mag..All 230gr. 45's....
 

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There was a time when even the best JHP ammo didn't expand reliably. Those days have passed. Great advances have been made in the last 20 years.

Japle, no company can guarantee expansion reliably in humans, there are too many variables on the street. Various test mediums used may give a fair representation of what a certain round is capable of given perfect circumstances vs another round.

I don't rely on absolutes that any round will expand when used on flesh. I choose loadings based on getting the rounds I use deep into vital organs, hence the heavier bullets with their greater mass.

From their advertising page about the DPX 185gr. +P HP Ammo:

The bullet holds together for deep, dependable penetration---every time!

Absolute statements like the above by Corbon are never as reliable as an ad campaign to deliver:rolf

For example, in the case of premium self defense Ranger T Winchester line of 230 grain 45acp, the +P loading gives less penetration than the standard velocity loading in test medium, expanding more rapidly due to the higher velocity and consequently stopping sooner.

I suppose we have to consider what each of us determines is enough penetration to begin with. While some will accept 8-10 inches, others want 12-14 inches of penetration and not less. Our choices should be based on what we think we can expect in the rounds we carry.

Brownie
 

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It's just an ad, Brownie, not sworn testimony in court.

Cops often require more penetration than civilians. They sometimes have to shoot through barriers in circumstances where a smart civilian would run for it.
The great majority of civilian SD shootings are straight-on frontal shootings. Not all, but nearly all. Personally, I'm happy with 8-10" of penetration, since that's the thickness of the average male chest. Here in Florida, the BGs don't usually wear heavy parkas. On the other hand, the ammo I carry (9PBLE) made its reputation from Texas to Michigan under all kinds of conditions, so the "low" penetration doesn't seem to be a problem.

In central Florida, 115-147 gr 9mm, 180 gr .40 and 200-230 gr .45 are the most commonly used by police. No particular brand rules. Ranger 180 gr .40 is very common. They all seem to work well.
 

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It's just an ad, Brownie, not sworn testimony in court.

I understand that, but naieve new shooters and some older guys and gals that should know better are buying that load based on the advertising hype and Corbon knows it. It's not about truth in advertising, it's about sales based on false statements, and those statements could get someone killed on the streets. Apparently Corbon doesn't care about the people reading their advertising, but cares more about making sales. If it was an ad that didn't affect ones decision in a potential life and death encounter, I'd care less, but it does matter what people buy and use, and most buy not from a knowledge base of facts and research but from what they read in advertising.

The great majority of civilian SD shootings are straight-on frontal shootings. Not all, but nearly all. Personally, I'm happy with 8-10" of penetration, since that's the thickness of the average male chest. Here in Florida, the BGs don't usually wear heavy parkas.

You might want to reconsider the underlined sir. Don't forget that the feds learned a very hard lesson in Miami [ right there in your home state ] with lack of adequate penetration problems from their own loads some time ago. Their thoughts were the same as yours until their lightweight silver tips didn't dig deep enough and got another two officers shot/wounded or killed because of it.

I know that it wasn't a civilian shooting and involved a federal agency, but I think I'll err on the side of caution, not rely on having a perfect frontal shot, not rely on the guy not weighing in at 300+ and having to get through 10" of fat/tissue and muscle before getting into organs even with a perfect frontal shot, not rely on any bullet expansion and base my decisions on the best loads for penetration in HP design I can get [ which is the heavier bullets in every caliber at nominal velocities not +P loadings ]. If I get any expansion, all the better, but no one can guarantee it in any load, no one. The morgue guys I've talked to over the years tell me that can't tell a HP from ball wound channel most of the time, and most loads don't expand at all or very little in humans.

Gotta go with what ya know, but I'd suggest everyone research real data and not buy the latest hyped up loads that come along. They'll be better off for it when lives may hang in the balance based on the decisions one makes before they have to defend themselves.

Brownie
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Brownie, I've spent a few minutes now trying to find where I read that from ... I'm pretty sure it was from this forum, but i guess not. Really dont remember, but I know I read it from somewhere. Sorry.
As for the 165gr ammo I was carrying ... its put back in its box and I've loaded Speer Lawman 230gr ball ammo. I have yet to shoot these at the range which is why I wasn't carrying with them plus just makes it heavier. I'll get used to it. Its time to go ammo shopping ... looks like i'll be getting the Fed 230gr or speer gold dot. Thanx all for the remarks.
 

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bdkjose,

Thanks for trying to find the original reference, it's not a problem but I'd like to have been able to verify whether that came from someones personal opinion or actually was written based on someones research and extrapolation of data collection.

In testing from one of my senior seasoned street veterans on the 9mm loads, here's the rundown:

Penetration results in order of deepest to shallowest for the G19:

Win.RA9T 147gr -- 13 5/8"
Rem.147gr.Golden Sabre -- 13 1/2"
Win.RA9TA -- 12 1/4"
Rem.124gr.+P bonded -- 12 1/8"
Speer 124gr.+P Gold Dot -- 12"
Fed.147 gr.HST -- 11"

Penetration results in order of deepest to shallowest for the G26

Win.RA9T 147gr -- 13 1/2"
Rem.147gr.GS -- 13"
Speer 147gr. Gold Dot -- 13"
Rem.124gr.+P Bonded GS -- 12 1/4"
Speer 124g.+P GD -- 12"
Win.RA9TA -- 12"
Fed.147gr.HST -- 10 1/2"

Best expansion for loads tested in G19:

Fed.147 gr.HST -- .711
Win.RA9TA -- .671
Rem.147gr.Golden Sabre -- .6235
Rem.124gr.+P bonded -- .595
Win.RA9T 147gr -- .589
Speer 124gr.+P Gold Dot -- .571
Speer 147gr.GD -- .552

Best expansion for loads tested in the G26

Fed.147gr.HST -- .692
Win.RA9TA -- .613
Rem.147gr.GS -- .590
Rem.124gr.+P Bonded GS -- .586
Win.RA9T 147 gr-- .575
Speer 147gr. Gold Dot -- .574
Speer 124g.+P GD -- lost, no data

What I see here from the data is that the lighter +P bullets, for the most part do not get as deep in the G19 and G26. I also see that the best expansion results in less penetration for the most part.

For instance, the Federal HST load has the best expansion in both guns but is last in the chart for penetration to the tune of 2 5/8" less in the G19 and 3" less in the G26 from the best pentrators in both guns, that being the Win.RA9T 147gr.
________________________________________________________

We're lucky in that the same guy is testing many loads in 45acp caliber and will be reporting the data in a similar manner in the near future. The testing is being completed and the data being extrapolated which will then be posted up on my own forum.

What we noticed is that his testing mirrors the results seen and reported on the streets, so we can roughly assume that the testing had value in deciding which loads to use based on expansion and penetration. Remembering that we're never guaranteed expansion in human bodies, penetration needs to be looked at carefully, and if we get expansion, all the better.

I'll post up a link when he gets the data on the 45acp's put up and we put things in order like above for the members here. I think you are going to be better served on the street with the 230 ball myself. You'll definately get enough penetration with that load to internal organs [ very desireable if you are going to shut people down sooner rather than later ].

Can't go wrong with the federal 230 or speer gold dots. Speer's loading is a bonded core bullet which means the jacket will not seperate from the core on hard targets like glass, car bodies, through doors, etc. and doesn't suffer for that when put into a humans body so it seems a good load for both possibilities.

Brownie
 

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On the other hand, the ammo I carry (9PBLE) made its reputation from Texas to Michigan under all kinds of conditions, so the "low" penetration doesn't seem to be a problem.

That rounds average penetration is rated at 11.8" in +P and just over 12" in +P+. Close enough to the 12" minimum deemed necessary by one and over in the other by current research.

That load has a good reputation, and for good reason. It's always been adequate in the penetration required for reliable stops. It was designed to stay together and that's why it digs deep enough [ it doesn't break up much even at the 1300 fps it starts out at like most lightweight 115 grain bullets on the market at the time it was being used by LE ].

It doesn't make it's reputation on expansion or it's lightweight high energy, but on it's ability to make 12" of penetration or more and get to organs. 8-10" of penetration is considered inadequate by most forensic ballistician's and for good reason.

Brownie
 

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Brownie, I’m having trouble with some of this. You say, “Gotta go with what ya know, but I'd suggest everyone research real data and not buy the latest hyped up loads that come along.” Problem is, there isn’t any “real data”. No one I know of is collecting data on actual performance on the street.

The penetration and expansion results you list; are they from actual tests on humans? Or are they from gelatin? Or wet phonebooks?

Nothing is 100%. So what? Ammo companies can’t shoot 10,000 people to justify their advertising claims. They have to use an industry-standard test medium. If their ammo performs 100% in the test medium, they go with their results. What choice do they have?

The current industry-standard test medium is 10% gello. Bullets developed in gello are significantly better than the crap we had back when the lead SWC was considered state-of-the-art. As I said earlier, there are no bad premium JHP loads being produced these days. Are some better than others? Sure. Is the difference significant? Gee, I don’t know……

People spend way too much time trying to decide between excellent loads. Shoot what runs 100% in your gun and shoots to your preferred POA. The BG will never know the difference.
 

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Brownie, I’m having trouble with some of this. You say, “Gotta go with what ya know, but I'd suggest everyone research real data and not buy the latest hyped up loads that come along.” Problem is, there isn’t any “real data”. No one I know of is collecting data on actual performance on the street.

Here's how I personally understand [ what I know ] things have progressed relative projectile performance. In the case of the Win Ranger T 147 standard velocity loading I use, the San Jose PD presently uses that load with great success on the street [ first six shooting on perps with it required one round to end the festivities ].

In your own loading of the Federal 9PBLE load, it has a street record of good performance in stopping aggressors as well.

Both of those loads get 12" of penetration or more into ballistic gel or wet pack testing and have a history of some expansion at the same time. Data has been collected by the feds on loadings used by their agency and other LE depts. on the streets. They've then extrapolated the results of those loads performance in gel and have determined the better performing loads in humans all get 12" or more of penetration in wetpack or gel, hence have determined a minimum of 12" of penetration is necessary for reliable performance and that loads that don't get that deep in testing are not as effective at stops. Sorta reverse engineering if you will.

The penetration and expansion results you list; are they from actual tests on humans? Or are they from gelatin? Or wet phonebooks?

The testing I posted was in wetpacks using phone books. The results he got mirror almost perfectly with results in 10% gel testing from other reliable sources [ feds and state/local LEO's ] as well so the data is comparable. The feds undertook a lengthy study [ which is still ongoing today ] after the Miami debacle. They looked at how loads tested in mediums and how they actually had performed on the streets, then made the decision that the loads that worked the best in real world shootings were also the ones that met the minimum of 12" of penetration, hence their decision that 12" was the minimum penetration they wanted to see in testing medium.

As I said earlier, there are no bad premium JHP loads being produced these days. Are some better than others? Sure. Is the difference significant? Gee, I don’t know……

I'd disagree that all premium JHP's are good to go based on the feds testing and street results from some of the more popular loadings being used. Most of the lighter 115 grain loadings don't get 12" of reliable penetration in testing mediums [ like the Win silvertip premium loading that not only fails the 12" minimum required by the feds today, but failed their officers in Miami as well ].

The difference between MOST 115 grain 9mm's and the better 124 or 147 grain premium loadings is significant in testing mediums for the accepted minimum of 12" by the feds. Hardly any dept still carries the 115 loading in any flavor, following the feds extensive testing and research after Miami. The 124 grain 9mm's show lots of promise as the best compromise, the Gold Dots in 124 grain particularly.

One of the interesting points that came out of the testing in wet packs was the Remmy Rem.124gr.+P Bonded GS -- 12 1/4" and the Rem.147gr.GS -- 13". Those two loads look very promising based on penetration and expansion as well which surprised me.

People spend way too much time trying to decide between excellent loads. Shoot what runs 100% in your gun and shoots to your preferred POA. The BG will never know the difference.

Probably good advice here, but I still want to err on the side of caution and use a heavier bullet that will, all things being equal, penetrate deeper than most of the lighter faster bullets with reported higher energy levels, hence the reason I stated earlier that you gotta go with what you know [ better penetration can be guaranteed with the heavier bullets and you can't rely on expansion in any of them on the streets except under the best of conditions ].

Brownie
 

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I agree with most of the above. Except your remarks about the 9mm Silvertip. Today's Silvertip isn't the same as the one used in the Miami shootout. Not even close. Totally redesigned.

After Miami, the FBI blamed lack of penetration (only one of the failures in that fight, but that's another subject). The resulting "approved" 9mm load was the crappy, subsonic 147 gr load that sometimes didn't have enough power to cycle duty weapons (lots of FTEs in my duty M9) and didn't end fights nearly as well as the current, full-power stuff.

In any case, ammo choice is, at most, 5% of your preparation for a gunfight. There are better ways to spend your time.
 

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Today's Silvertip isn't the same as the one used in the Miami shootout. Not even close. Totally redesigned.

Yes sir, but it still doesn't get 12" of penetration.

The 147's of today are not the ones of yesteryear as well. The latest generation of 147 loadings are working fine even though the stigma of the earlier failing in that load weight still remains with many who aren't current with the latest developments in design.

In any case, ammo choice is, at most, 5% of your preparation for a gunfight

It's lower on the scale of priorities to get through a bad day, agreed.

Brownie
 

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Today's Silvertip isn't the same as the one used in the Miami shootout. Not even close. Totally redesigned.

Yes sir, but it still doesn't get 12" of penetration.

The 147's of today are not the ones of yesteryear as well. The latest generation of 147 loadings are working fine even though the stigma of the earlier failing in that load weight still remains with many who aren't current with the latest developments in design.

In any case, ammo choice is, at most, 5% of your preparation for a gunfight

It's lower on the scale of priorities to get through a bad day, agreed.

Brownie
Only 5%? If you have no confidence in it or you have the slightest bit of hesitation about it, you loose. You are going to be concentrating on or thinking about it (the ammo) while a potential BG is loading you full of hot lead/copper.
 

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My point, which I’ve restated a few times, is that it’s hard to find a bad performing premium load for the major calibers these days. You might find a load or three that won’t function reliably in your gun or which shoots to a POA that you don’t like. Don’t carry those loads. But the poor performance we were used to in the old days has pretty well been engineered out.

There’s no love lost between ammo companies. They all make the best product they can. Testing methods have been greatly improved.
All the “shall issue” states have expanded the market and the ammo companies want that business.

So - I Say Again – don’t spend too much time on the difference between XYZ and WXY. Spend your time learning to shoot and becoming mentally ready.
 

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My point, which I’ve restated a few times, is that it’s hard to find a bad performing premium load for the major calibers these days

The law enforcement community spends a great deal of time looking for the best load of the premium loads available for a reason. Increasing ones odds of a round that performs better on the street over another is important. I don't believe we civilians should ignore that mindset.

It's in our best interest to carry a load thats got a better street record of faster stops over another load as well. It doesn't take all that much effort to search their testing results and choices, and it may increase our chances of surviving by some margin which is prudent, and why those who may have to use their weapons want the best load they can buy in the weapons.

I'd spend as much time researching the data thats in evidence on the street as I would which weapon has the best chance of going bang when the chips are down and can run better than another choice under the worst of conditions in the harshest environs. I don't choose guns any differently than I choose the ammo it's fed. Due diligence isn't a bad thing, and forethought goes a long way to keeping tyhe odds slanted in my favor, whether that be training, choice of weapons, choice of holsters, or ammo.

Nor all premium loads are created equal, they may all be better than yesteryear, but there are loads that outperform others on the streets, and that the choice I'm allowed to make, unlike some law dogs who have to carry what they are issued, good bad or ugly.

When you have a choice, it's prudent to make the best choice based on your own criteria of whats important to you. The data is out there if one takes the time to search for it. As Japle suggests, most premium loads will suffice and should stand you well, but I don't personally make choices that aren't researched extensively where my life may hang in the balance.

I prefer not to be alive by accident. Forethought goes a long way.

Brownie
 

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What I'm seeing here now seems to contradict the research I've done in the past (which was several years ago, admittedly). According to the information I reviewed then, the Cor-Bon 115 gr. +p JHP had the highest 'one-shot-stop' rating for 9mm loads in the Marshall/Sanow survey and also scored very high in the 'Strasbourg Tests'. Am I now completely off the mark?

On a side note, Federal used to produce a 147 gr. +p 9mm load; to me that always seemed like the best of both worlds...a heavy bullet moving at high velocity, but I never saw it mentioned in the gun press at that time (which was about 20 years ago). IIRC, Florida Fish & Game used to issue that ammo to its officers.
 

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deadeyedick,

Marshall/Sanow tests? Most authoritative studies poo-poo their work now, their findings now considered invalid or un-scientifically sound research by most everyone, and their work discredited by others research which was more thorough as more variables were considered in the findings.

No one has ever been able to verify the Strasbourg tests even took place officially that I'm aware of. Not the location, date/time, nor the data results that were reported. In those tests, the best load in almost every caliber was the high speed lightweight frangibles [ at roughly the same time frame along with Evan and Marshalls posted results, the high speed lightweight high foot pounds of energy loads were the buzz words of the day ].

I believe I read where Evan Marshall also was under contract with Corbon at one time, though I don't know whether that was during the time he posted their results or not. For some time, people questioned their research, and it's been fairly well accepted that the data is not to be relied on.

Both of them have been relegated to near obscurity at this time relative their testing results and those reported results are no longer touted as the authoritative works for one shot stops by anyone but themselves that I know of.

Brownie
 
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