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My wife is a permanent resident with her CCW...no problem. Last year, we take her friend from home to a local range..great fun. This year we try with other visiting friends, legal with a visa, and we are told they cannot use the range. You must be a citizen, or resident alien to purchase ammunition, be in possession of a firearm, and use the range.

Now, the range I frequent lost 40% of their business that was based on tourism.

How sad is this we cannot show others what we have to offer as a society:thumbsdwn


I didn't have time to ask the statute #. Anyone know? Fed or state is it?
 

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I am not sure about the legalities !

One range near here was allowing people to use the shop computer to go online and purchase an Alaskan hunting license ! then they were supposedly legal to use firearms at the range ! Check it out ! Kevin
 

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Reaction to the "flying school" debacle. Typical to close the barn door to the cattle and horses AFTER the wolf has visited and left!:deadhorse
 

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I was at a range in Orlando a few months ago. I overheard a non-citizen talking to the guy at the counter. He sold him range time and rented him a range of handguns starting with .22 with the intent to try "all different kinds".

I dont know the result because the whole thing seemed fishy to me and I left, but before I did, I saw them exchanging money and it seemed like it was going to happen.

:drinks
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yah, everything I've read has been about possession as in ownership or purchasing clauses...nothing about play time with legal owners at a range.

Wasn't an issue last year. Maybe I call them up and ask for more details. The guys there were acting like my friends shouldn't even be holding the case of pistols he was helping me carry. LULZ, I was shooting there with a guy from Ireland a few months ago.
 

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I guess thats why

"The ATF regulation prohibits non-immigrant aliens from possessing/purchasing a firearm. Interestingly, if they have a hunting license, they are ok per the ATF rule above, but a concealed weapons permit is not enough. odd... "

I guess that is why they had them purchase the Alaskan hunting license ! So that they could rent them guns from the range !
Kevin
 

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Case Law on Topic

Here is a news report on a case in which a "non-immigrant alien" was convicted of possession of a weapon at the Shoot Straight Gun Range in Tampa.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/apr/02/022156/usf-grads-fate-gun-case-now-hands-jury/

USF Student Found Guilty In Firearms Case

By ELAINE SILVESTRINI | The Tampa Tribune
Published: April 2, 2008
Updated: 04/02/2008 09:56 pm

TAMPA - Holding a rifle in a shooting range for 21/2 minutes may bring more than two years in prison for a former University of South Florida student.

Karim Moussaoui was two days away from graduating with three computer engineering degrees and was preparing to work at his family's business in Casablanca when he was arrested on the unusual federal weapons charge Dec. 13.

The 28-year-old from Morocco gained authorities' attention when his name was brought up in the investigation of two other USF students in an explosives case.

He had gone to the shooting range with a friend, Youssef Megahed, last summer and posed for pictures holding a .22-caliber rifle Megahed had rented — snapshots investigators found when they confiscated Megahed's computer.

Wednesday afternoon, a jury convicted Moussaoui. He will be sentenced July 14. Until then, he remains behind bars.

U.S. District Judge James D. Whittemore ordered his incarceration because he fears Moussaoui might flee if allowed to go free on bond. He invited defense attorney Deeann Athan to file a motion next week to reassure him Moussaoui won't leave the United States if granted bond.

Before the verdict, Moussaoui told reporters assembled on the steps of the federal courthouse of his optimism: "It's a country of justice, the United States of America."

Although the trial seemingly involved only the issue of whether Moussaoui possessed the rifle while he was at the range July 19, it was infused with references to two of his friends from USF.

Those friends — Megahed and Ahmed Mohamed, both Egyptian citizens — are facing charges that they illegally transported explosives. The case against them stems from a vehicle stop in South Carolina on Aug. 4, when deputies said they found pipe bombs in the trunk. Mohamed is also accused of helping terrorists with an Internet video on bomb-making.

Both are in custody and awaiting trials scheduled to begin in a few weeks.

Moussaoui was with Megahed at the Shoot Straight Tampa shooting range when he held the gun Megahed rented. Because he is a legal, permanent resident of the United States, Megahed was legally allowed to posses and rent the weapon. Moussaoui's status was different what is legally referred to as a non-immigrant alien, making his possession of a weapon illegal.

Evidence showed that when Megahed rented the gun, he had to complete a form in which he had to say whether he belonged to categories of people not allowed to have firearms, including convicted felons, illegal aliens, people who have renounced their U.S. citizenship or those who have received dishonorable discharges from the military.

The category of non-immigrant alien was not mentioned on that form, although it is included on paperwork required to purchase a gun.

Moussaoui testified he had no idea his actions were illegal. But ignorance of the law is not a recognized defense, and his attorney was not allowed to argue it.

Athan, the defense attorney, also tried to argue that Moussaoui did not possess the weapon in the legal sense because he could not have removed it from the premises and because he wasn't the one who rented it. The defense's efforts to make this argument to the jury were restricted by Whittemore.

Athan asked the judge to instruct jurors they could consider a defense of "temporary transitory possession" or "temporary innocent possession." Whittemore rejected that request, citing appeals court rulings that placed that argument out of reach.

There was one aspect of the case to which the judge said the argument might apply: In a surveillance video taken at the shooting range and gun store, Moussaoui can be seen picking up a box of bullets, reading the label and then immediately returning the box to its place.

At first, Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Monk argued that action constituted possession of ammunition and was proof Moussaoui committed a crime.

The judge said, under that scenario, he would give a legal instruction that the jury could consider the temporary possession defense. Monk then retracted that argument, and the judge didn't give that jury instruction.

Whittemore told jurors that the prosecution had to prove possession of the firearm or ammunition was voluntary, and not by mistake.

Athan told jurors that the owners of the shooting range have control over what goes on inside the premises. When she tried to say the range had control over the gun, Monk objected and the judge sustained the objection.

Monk urged jurors not to be distracted by the arguments.

"Did he think it was an umbrella or did he know it was a firearm?" the prosecutor asked.
 

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I went a couple of weeks ago and saw obvious tourists shooting rented guns in the range.

Supposedly it is NOT legal, but it's being done. I thought "possession" meant even so much as handling the gun. Are there more legal definitions of the term?
 

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As typical for federal law, it talks a lot about "interstate commerce". Not sure how this would apply to me handing a gun to a non-immigrant-alien without crossing state lines in the process. But I guess there is a reason that i am not a lawyer.
Because the only thing the Feds are allowed to legislate is interstate commerce. How possession of a firearm within one thousand feet of a school has anything to do with interstate commerce is also beyond me.

If they didn't include the BS about interstate commerce the law would be found to be unconstitutional on appeal. Because they include the BS, SCOTUS refuses to hear the case.
 
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