[MamaBear]

As you know by now I'm not afraid to ask all the obvious questions. If anything it is never boring when I'm trying to learn about something.

This time my interest is in home defense shotguns. Would you please educate me on the pros and cons of a Remington 870 shotgun?

Do we need 20 or 12 gauge? What does it mean to have lighter loads? For the home could you use birdshots instead?

I've seen photos here of where you all have retrofitted shotguns but we do not have the knowledge to do something like that so we're left with what the store sells.

I know I have more questions but this will get you going.

As usual, thank you for educating me.

 

[BobL]

As you know by now I'm not afraid to ask all the obvious questions. If anything it is never boring when I'm trying to learn about something.

This time my interest is in home defense shotguns. Would you please educate me on the pros and cons of a Remington 870 shotgun?

Do we need 20 or 12 gauge? What does it mean to have lighter loads? For the home could you use birdshots instead?

I've seen photos here of where you all have retrofitted shotguns but we do not have the knowledge to do something like that so we're left with what the store sells.

I know I have more questions but this will get you going.

As usual, thank you for educating me.

Mamabear,


I happen to be researching the same questions, so while I am certainly no expert, I'm more than happy to tell you what I've learned.

The 870 is an excellent series of shotguns. They have a great reputation everywhere I've researched. Perhaps the only more respected gun is the Mossberg 500 series. My opinion of that is if you get a good buy on either an 870 in a model you like, or a Mossberg, or if you find one fits/feels better, either one will be fantastic. Mossberg has a "lower end" line called Maverick that is said to use all the same accessories and cost less. They say the Mossbergs are made in the US while the Mavericks are made in Mexico (or have more parts made in Mexico?).

There's an 870 and Maverick at my local shop for just about the same price, although the 870 is heavily discounted (supposedly someone ordered it, then changed their mind). If it's still there early next week, it may have a new home. (There are many 870s to choose from: http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_870/ - the one at the local shop is an "Express Synthetic 18" (I think) in blaze orange.)

The conventional wisdom answer to your other two questions are 12 ga. and buckshot. However.... There's a show on the Outdoor Channel called "Best Defense" http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/ that compared the penetration of a handful of weapons in a house, then on a dummy. Their conclusion was that if you were trying to make sure you didn't blow through many rooms, birdshot was a safer choice, but would put a serious hurtin' on anyone you hit with it. Buckshot and birdshot come in different size pellets, so it's a bit more complicated.

Lighter loads means less powder/less shot. There are several shell lengths (2 3/4", 3", 3 1/2"), and the gun you get should tell you which length shells it will take.

I am taking a tactical shotgun class tomorrow. If anything cool turns up, or if I'm wrong on any of this, I'll update it.



Hope that helps,
BobL

 

[FLRon]

Hi MB! I recently went through the learning/selection process of buying my first shotgun. Shotguns are sort of built to last a lifetime, and they are relatively simple in build and operation.

The most basic would be a pump action shotgun which requires your to manually pull the fore-end back (that familiar cha-ching sound) and then forward to eject a used shell and chamber the next.

Then you can find auto loading shotguns that do not require any "pump action" but operate by using the expelled gasses from the shot to cycle the next round into the chamber.

I opted for the Remington 870 which is a pump action, and I believe is the most popular shotgun ever manufactured to date. The closest competitor to the Remington 870 would be the Mossberg 500. While they are similar in many ways, they have various differences in the build and operating controls which make for some to love one more than the other, similar to the Colt vs. Smith & Wesson comparisons.

There are many options and configurations that you can buy and use once you decide which one you would like to purchase. I'll let some of the shotgun guys chime in with their thoughts about the subject, as well as discussion of 12 vs. 20 gauge and various self defense loads you would want to use.

Here is a link that discusses shotguns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

Here is a link to a page that discusses the various shell options.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell

 

[trulies]

Mossy 590 SPX

870s are nice but some have lifter issues

 

[T.S.]

Would you please educate me on the pros and cons of a Remington 870 shotgun?

The Remington 870 is a very dependable pump shotgun, whereas the Mossberg 500 is not as high a quality as the Remington.

For home defense you would want to get one with a rifled slug barrel. This barrel is shorter making it better to use in and around the inside of your home ( ie: hallways, etc. ) it also puts out a wider " shot spread " with the shorter barrel, which will increase the kill zone of your shot

Do we need 20 or 12 gauge?

I would reccomend a 12 guage. It has more power than a 20 guage. If you are looking for a home defense shotgun, then you want the increased knockdown power of a 12 guage.

What does it mean to have lighter loads?

Shotgun shells come in a variety of shot sizes. The larger the number, the smaller the bb's. ( go figure ) For home defense I use 00 buckshot in my shotgun. This is the same load that I had in my shotgun when I was a LEO.

For the home could you use birdshots instead?

You can use birdshot if that is all that you can find. Keep in mind that I would recommend nothing larger than a #4 or #5 shot. You want to have as much damage as possible when the shot, or bb's, hit the intruder. But, if all you have or can find is say a #6, #7, or a #8 shot, well as they say... any port in a storm. Meaning, any shot is better than no shot.

 

[Mac45]

Let's see the pros and cons of a Remington 870 for defense.

Pros:
High quality and double action bars.

Cons:
The controls [safety and slide release], while fine for hunting, are in the wrong locations for tactical considerations . The solid loading gate can jam the action if a shell should inadvertantly back out of the magazine. This rarely happens, though. They are a little bit pricey.

12 or 20 guage? No real difference at household ranges.

Barrel length? 18" or 20" for a household defensive shotgun. Anything longer can make maneuvering the weapon in tight spaces a problem.

Ammo. This gets a little bit tricky. Buck shot gives you the largest projectiles and therefor longer range and greater stopping effect from fewer pellets on target. Unfortunately, it also gives you greater penetration, including walls.
Field loads, while not as powerful as buck shot, are usually quite effective at household ranges for two reasons; first, the weight of the shot shot charge is far greater than that of a handgun round and second, the smaller the shot size [the bigger the number] the tighter the pattern of shot. #4 field loads produce less shot spread over a given distance than larger size pellets, including buckshot, possibly placing more pellets on target.

Now, one other thing to consider is recoil. If you are a petit woman, or a large man for that matter, you will definitely feel the recoil from a shotgun and the shorter the barrel and the more powerful the loads the greater the recoil. Don't be afraid of it. With the addition of a good recoil pad and a good tight cheek and shoulder weld, you will be able to ride the recoil with no injury. Just lean into it and hang on tight. My wife, a rather petit woman, practices those simple rules and has no trouble at all with a short barreled shotgun with buckshot loads. Firing from the hip takes a lot of practice to do effectively, even at household ranges.

Watch BobL' s link and you'll get an idea of what to expect.

 

[deadeyedick]

For home defense you would want to get one with a rifled slug barrel. This barrel is shorter making it better to use in and around the inside of your home ( ie: hallways, etc. ) it also puts out a wider " shot spread " with the shorter barrel, which will increase the kill zone of your shot

I'm going to have to take exception with this advice...a rifled slug barrel is suitable for use with sabot slugs in a deer slug gun, not shotshells in a HD weapon. Perhaps you meant rifle sights? In which case I agree.

As far as a 'kill zone', a shotgun must still be aimed to be effective. Contrary to popular belief, a shotgun blast does not create a wide swath of destruction downrange. And you are still responsible for where every pellet goes, just as you would be with pistol bullets.

Mamabear, there are several criteria for you to evaluate before you can determine which shotgun best suits your needs.

Remington 870 vs. Mossberg 500

The two ubiquitous brands of fighting pump shotguns sold in the U.S. I personally give a slight edge in quality to the Remington, but you would not be under-armed with either. Both have an extensive array of aftermarket accessories available and come in a variety of confgurations from their respective manufacturers.

Configuration

Ideally, a fighting shotgun should have a barrel length of 18-20" and a full stock (forget about pistol-grip only shotguns; you really need to know what you're doing to be effective with those). Rifle sights are nice, but not essential on a weapon that will be fired at living room distances. Extended magazines, sidesaddles and buttcuff ammo carriers are nice but once again, not absolutely essential for a HD gun. I am in favor of weapon-mounted lights on HD shotguns.

Will this be a dedicated home defense weapon or will it serve double duty as a sporting gun? Some shotguns are sold as kits with multiple barrels for this very purpose.

12 gauge vs. 20 gauge

A 20 gauge would be perfectly adequate for HD use and offers the advantage of reduced recoil; however, the only practical defensive load available in 20 ga. is #3 buckshot. As far as versatility and variety of ammunition available, the 12 gauge wins hands down. And with reduced-recoil buckshot loads, recoil is very manageable.

Buckshot vs. Birdshot

I have heard far too many stories about people surviving shotgun wounds from birdshot (in a variety of situations, not only SD scenarios) to recommend it for home defense use. IMO, the reduced-recoil 00 buckshot loads offered by Federal and others are the way to go. Yes, the risk of penetration of walls with buckshot pellets is greater than with birdshot...but it's also less than the risk of overpenetration by a pistol bullet. Hit what you're aiming at and it won't be an issue.

As far as slugs go, they have their uses...but CQB in a home defense scenario ain't one of 'em.

To give you an idea of what you can do on a budget, here's a picture of my daughter's shotgun. Several years ago I bought her a Remington 870 Youth Model in 20 gauge just for breaking clay pidgeons with for about $200 (they're a little more now). It came with a 21" barrel (not too long for HD use), a reduced-length stock and screw-in choke tubes (Improved Cylinder is the best choke for HD use, IMO). When she moved out, all I added was a 4-shot Sidesaddle, a Wilson/SGT +2 magazine extension and a Hi-Viz fiber optic front sight, turning it into a fairly decent little HD shotgun.

 

[brownie]

Mamabear,

This link will give you lots of information on others opinions relative home defense shotties.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=32

My own opinion is, the simpler the better. Learn to use the shottie instinctively like you did your pistols, all the bells and whistles become unnecessary.

Brownie

 

[T.S.]

I'm going to have to take exception with this advice...a rifled slug barrel is suitable for use with sabot slugs in a deer slug gun, not shotshells in a HD weapon. Perhaps you meant rifle sights? In which case I agree.

Ol' Deadeye caught my mis-spoke.

I said one thing and meant another. What I meant to say was to get the shotgun with a shorter barrel, and I used the term "rifled slug barrel" when I should have said something like a 20" barrel with a fixed choke and an improved cylinder with rifle sights.

Something like this ....

Uh, Deadeye, that was a test to see if anyone was paying attention, and you passed with flying colors!! :thumsup

 

[MamaBear]

Thanks, guys.

This gives me enough info to keep me busy while researching info.

 

[ccmc]

Try a few out to find out what FEELS comfortable in terms of weight and balance. For me that was a Remington 870 Express Tactical 12 gauge.

 

[airhead]

check out the box of truth:

tactics:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu83.htm

penetration:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

rifled barrel with buckshot:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm

there are a few other shotgun related issues there.

 

[BobL]

It turns out the only important thing to come out of my intro tactical shotgun class that affects our choice was that my wife couldn't handle the length of a full sized shotgun. At 4'10", her arms are too short to work the pump briskly. She ended up needing to run the pump in two motions to get that extra inch or so of pump motion. Too slow for emergency use.

We need to either go to a youth model or to one with a shorter stock. Shopping around, I find this Mossberg: http://www.impactguns.com/store/015813504201.html (no connection to the dealer, etc., it's just that Mossberg doesn't have a dedicated page for this gun). This Mossy has an adjustable stock, much like the one on the AR-15 we got to shoot.

Remington makes this one: http://www.impactguns.com/store/047700814001.html which looks like it has a similar stock. It is about 1/3 more expensive.

I'm thinking that I could adapt to the smaller gun, but there's no way for her to use the full sized gun.

Since both are apparently out of stock everywhere, I suppose we'll be able to spend some more time evaluating choices. It would be fantastic to go someplace where we could handle both guns, and others, but it doesn't seem like that will be available with the current shortages.



BobL

 

[BobL]

check out the box of truth:

.....

penetration:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

.....
there are a few other shotgun related issues there.

Number 4 said,
"4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels. Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint." :rolf



BobL

 

[J T]

Bob, here's Mossberg's web page with the 50420 specs: http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5&display=specs

Another option you might consider is an aftermarket stock like a Knoxx recoil-reducing stock. They're available for many Mossberg, Remington and Winchester shotguns. This is the stock that's already on the 870 you linked to.
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SpecOps-Adjustable-Shotgun-Stock,1158,165.htm

I have both a Mossberg 500 and a Remington 870 with the Knoxx stock added, and either one would probably be fine length-wise for your wife. My wife (5' 1/2") can shoot the Mossberg fine, although she'd probably prefer the Remington with the Knoxx stock (she hasn't shot it yet).

 

[jimmills]

Mamabear, before you run out and buy a 12 gauge, you might be well served to fire one first.

I have a Mossberg 12 gauge pump, the one with the barrel and the magazine tube that are the same length.

I was checking to see how much the 3 inch magnum 00 buckshot loads would bruise my shoulder. After half a dozen rounds, I told my wife, "You need to fire this thing a few times so you will know what to expect should you ever have to use it." She took the shotgun, aimed it down range and fired a shot.

To this day, I still feel guilty over the sight of her limping around like a bird with a broken wing, tears trickling down her face from the pain in her shoulder. It must have stomped her really good. My couch was a cold lonely place for the next few nights. I asked her if she wanted me to sleep outside in the dog house with the German Shepherd. Her reply was, "No. The dog deserves better company than that."

I think she would rather a BG just go ahead and shoot her than to have to fire that 12 gauge again.

Jim

 

[BobL]

Bob, here's Mossberg's web page with the 50420 specs: http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5&display=specs

Another option you might consider is an aftermarket stock like a Knoxx recoil-reducing stock. They're available for many Mossberg, Remington and Winchester shotguns. This is the stock that's already on the 870 you linked to.
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/SpecOps-Adjustable-Shotgun-Stock,1158,165.htm

I have both a Mossberg 500 and a Remington 870 with the Knoxx stock added, and either one would probably be fine length-wise for your wife. My wife (5' 1/2") can shoot the Mossberg fine, although she'd probably prefer the Remington with the Knoxx stock (she hasn't shot it yet).

JT,


Thanks for that link to the Knoxx stock! I downloaded the instructions and it seems like you could put it on just about any shotgun (well, in the models they list). I was thinking it might be possible with one of the pistol grip guns, but hadn't thought of replacing the whole stock.

This opens up lots of possibilities. Thanks again.



BobL

 

[deadeyedick]

Mamabear, before you run out and buy a 12 gauge, you might be well served to fire one first.

I have a Mossberg 12 gauge pump, the one with the barrel and the magazine tube that are the same length.

I was checking to see how much the 3 inch magnum 00 buckshot loads would bruise my shoulder. After half a dozen rounds, I told my wife, "You need to fire this thing a few times so you will know what to expect should you ever have to use it." She took the shotgun, aimed it down range and fired a shot.

To this day, I still feel guilty over the sight of her limping around like a bird with a broken wing, tears trickling down her face from the pain in her shoulder. It must have stomped her really good. My couch was a cold lonely place for the next few nights. I asked her if she wanted me to sleep outside in the dog house with the German Shepherd. Her reply was, "No. The dog deserves better company than that."

I think she would rather a BG just go ahead and shoot her than to have to fire that 12 gauge again.

Jim

Why in God's name would you have your wife fire it with 3" Magnums? Is that your home defense load? :thumbsdwn

You gain absolutely nothing in terms of lethality with magnums; all you get is plenty of additional recoil. Any of the reduced-recoil/tactical 00 buckshot loads from the major manufacturers are a superior choice for HD use and they won't dislocate your shoulder.

 

[jimmills]

Why in God's name would you have your wife fire it with 3" Magnums? Is that your home defense load? :thumbsdwn

You gain absolutely nothing in terms of lethality with magnums; all you get is plenty of additional recoil. Any of the reduced-recoil/tactical 00 buckshot loads from the major manufacturers are a superior choice for HD use and they won't dislocate your shoulder.

It wasn't so much the increased powder load as it was 15 pellets vs 12 pellets of 00. I myself had not paid much attention to the recoil and didn't realize it was kicking so much. I had bought 2 five round packages of the magnums and that was all I had with me at the time. They were the last magnum rounds I ever bought. Since then it has been nothing but the 2 3/4 inch regular shells of 00.

I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with the premise that absolutely nothing is gained with respect to lethality by using 3 inch magnum shells. That seems to defy physics to me. Surely more of the same size pellets pushed harder are more lethal.

Of course, if you mean that because a low recoil shell will kill an intruder completely as dead as a magnum round will kill him, then I must agree with you. That's because dead doesn't get any deader than dead. At that point, it doesn't matter if you hit him in the eye with a 22 cal round or hit him in the belly button with a 155 howitzer round, dead is dead and he doesn't get any deader.

Jim

 

[deadeyedick]

The only practical application for the additional energy in a magnum shell vs. a standard velocity shell is to extend the effective range of the pellets. It won't kill a human any "deader" at typical SD distances than a reduced-recoil shell, and the added range is typically not applicable in a home defense scenario. If you feel you need the extended range that 3" magnum shells offer, I contend you should be using slugs...or a rifle.

The only other possible application for that extra power would be to kill an animal that would not be stopped by a standard velocity load...like maybe a Bigfoot, or a Chupacabra.