[Rvrctyrngr]

This skill would not work well at all for a southpaw with their own firearm on the same side as the perps. No more than I'd use this skill against a left handed perp because I'm right handed and wear my edc on the same side of a southpaw. There are other options other than this skill available and as I responded to Mac, it works when certain circumstances are presented as threats that need to be addressed.

I think it's still viable, Brownie. One would need to sweep the BG's gunarm with a right-hand parry (swat the bug with a backhand, not a forehand)...but you better be quick and moving forward! I'll try it today with my resident slap-test dummy (or Jim). :grin

Wrong-handers have to do everything the hard way!

 

[brownie]

I believe it's still viable as well, just not with the DATD sir. :thumsup

 

[Mac45]

If you are defending against a high presentation [the opponent's firearm is above the mid-point of your chest] why would you have to shoot OVER your blocking arm?

You wouldn't, you'd use a different technique. I mentioned "The CD scene would not be the time to use the Draw against the Drop [ DATD ]. The perp wasn't close enough to trap the perps forearm correctly" I didn't bring up the CD Cruise scene in comparing the DATD to what he did in the movie. There is no commonality between the two whatsoever.

if this technique can't be used against more than one opponent, as Cruise did, it seems inferior to the one presented in the movie

Hence the statement, "The CD scene would not be the time to use the Draw against the Drop [ DATD ]". Another skill/technique would be used that would afford better chances of success. The DATD is a technique/skill like any other, it is effective under certain circumstances and not in others. I'd not use 1/2 hip from 50 yrds, but that doesn't mean it's not effective at 3-4 yrds. No one skill will be correct for all situations, this one is no different in that regard Mac.

It seems that the DATD technique that you are presenting is needlessly complicated.

If by complicated you mean you have to use both hands simultaneously, I suppose there are some who can't chew gun and walk at the same time, but I mentioned that as a requirement in the original post. Not only is it not complicated, it's not needlessly complicated. If it were that complicated it wouldn't work even under the right conditions.

Is there any video of it being performed?

Not that I'm aware of.

I think that you are focusing on a specific, highly specialized technique, rather than on a generic technique which is applicable to almost every deflection-draw-engage situation. It is very easy to use virtually the same technique to defend against a high or low presentation.

As to being complicated, I was referring to being forced to shoot OVER your forearm in whatever a DATD technique is. AS long as you don't shoot THROUGH your forearm, I don't see where whether you shoot over or under it is important. And, gripping the wrist of the handgun long enough to draw and fire seems to make some complicated forearm trapping maneuver needless. But, hey, since I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about anyway, what does it matter?

 

[brownie]

I think that you are focusing on a specific, highly specialized technique, rather than on a generic technique which is applicable to almost every deflection-draw-engage situation. It is very easy to use virtually the same technique to defend against a high or low presentation.

As to being complicated, I was referring to being forced to shoot OVER your forearm in whatever a DATD technique is. AS long as you don't shoot THROUGH your forearm, I don't see where whether you shoot over or under it is important. And, gripping the wrist of the handgun long enough to draw and fire seems to make some complicated forearm trapping maneuver needless. But, hey, since I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about anyway, what does it matter?

But of course Mac, it's not something but few have ever heard of, seen performed and fewer that have been privy to work with it. Then there's the fact only four of us are authorized to teach it correctly and two of those aren't teaching it, that leaves two of us plus the Dep who used it and then perfected it.

Just another trick in the possibles bag for me, to be used when and if the situation dictated that could be a proper response. I don't like generic skills in general, don't believe generic skills work at solving "every deflection-draw-engage situation" to begin with. The title of the thread suggests a specialized skill, the original narrative explained why it was a specialized skill.

It is very easy to use virtually the same technique to defend against a high or low presentation.

I'd disagree with that consensus. Try using a skill meant for high line attack when the threat comes in low with a blade or vice versa and your chances of thwarting the attack decreases exponentially, but in reality likely fails miserably [ that's why there are high line and low line responses to attacks ].

 

[inthewoods]

Brownie,
With the requirements you gave, for me 1 and 3 are doable. no. 2 I am not so sure about.

Having taken your H2H class in July and learning how to do gun disarms among other things, I don't think for myself that I would try to draw. Having the use of both hands in this situation with the B.G. in touching range, first and foremost would be bladeing my body to make the inevitable shot fired miss. Hopefully. At the same time gaining control of the shooters hand and deflecting the muzzle away from my body. Almost simutainiously, coming across with a Y hand strike to the throat. Then access my weapon if needed. Personally, I think this would be faster, for me anyway. I don't think I could make a clean draw not counting that I might shoot my own arm as someone else said earlier given the adrenaline dump that would be taking place.

This is my opinion only. Hope I never have to find out if it would work.

 

[Mac45]

But of course Mac, it's not something but few have ever heard of, seen performed and fewer that have been privy to work with it. Then there's the fact only four of us are authorized to teach it correctly and two of those aren't teaching it, that leaves two of us plus the Dep who used it and then perfected it.

Just another trick in the possibles bag for me, to be used when and if the situation dictated that could be a proper response. I don't like generic skills in general, don't believe generic skills work at solving "every deflection-draw-engage situation" to begin with. The title of the thread suggests a specialized skill, the original narrative explained why it was a specialized skill.

It is very easy to use virtually the same technique to defend against a high or low presentation.

I'd disagree with that consensus. Try using a skill meant for high line attack when the threat comes in low with a blade or vice versa and your chances of thwarting the attack decreases exponentially, but in reality likely fails miserably [ that's why there are high line and low line responses to attacks ].

I refer you to the following reference.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...raining/113418-drawing-against-drop-datd.html

Notice that this is entitled Draw Against The Drop and the poster claims to be the originator. Also notice that the step-by-step description of the procedure is almost identical to what I posted and what Cruse attempted in the movie. So, just exactly who originated your DATD technique and where is it taught? And, if it is so good, why keep it a secret?

And, You can shove a gun into my face or my stomach and I can use virtually the same procedure to blade, deflect, draw and engage. And, it is effective. So, I see no reason for "trapping" an arm as you claim is necessary in your DATD technique. But, as I said, as I can find no reference to such a technique, other than the above link, I really have no way to judge the effectiveness of your technique.

 

[brownie]

I refer you to the following reference.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...raining/113418-drawing-against-drop-datd.html

Notice that this is entitled Draw Against The Drop and the poster claims to be the originator. Also notice that the step-by-step description of the procedure is almost identical to what I posted and what Cruse attempted in the movie. So, just exactly who originated your DATD technique and where is it taught? And, if it is so good, why keep it a secret?

And, You can shove a gun into my face or my stomach and I can use virtually the same procedure to blade, deflect, draw and engage. And, it is effective. So, I see no reason for "trapping" an arm as you claim is necessary in your DATD technique. But, as I said, as I can find no reference to such a technique, other than the above link, I really have no way to judge the effectiveness of your technique.

So, just exactly who originated your DATD technique and where is it taught?

I didn't state the DATD was mine Mac. What I wrote was:
"There are only 4 people authorized to train others in the skill tested in the real world [ myself being one of the four ] and advanced as a viable option by the originator." Not quite sure how you came to the conclusion from the above that this was something I developed.

The DC thread IS posted by the originator, the dep. [ Guantes by poster name Mac ]. It's not taught anywhere but by himself and 3 others he's given permission to teach it correctly as we demonstrated we had the skill down to his satisfaction. He's actually been out here to train one on one with me for 3 days for skills swaps and been in one of the courses here at "Sightless at Rio" as an adjunct instructor in the DATD, guys fast, been around the block a time or two. He mentions a select few he's passed this to, as i mentioned in the OP.

I never mentioned trapping, I stated "Your left hand has gained [ and maintains ] brief control of the wrist/hand of the perp". In the Cruise video, he doesn't trap the guys arm at all, nor does he gain control of it, nor does he even briefly gets control of it, he slaps it off his body and lets go, so I fail to see how it's the same as what you think you see that Cruise does in that clip. It's not even close.

His description is exactly what I posted in steps, he mentions blading which helps index the shooting arm on the parrying forearm. I didn't use the term indexing as he did/does in his post, and he indexes on the parry elbow where I just described it as placing the shooting arm on the parry arm. Then again, Guantes developed it, and would of course explain it better yet nothing in his post/description comes anywhere close to the Cruise scene. He doesn't mention the muzzle crossing the parry forearm, but states to make sure you index the gun hand correctly or you'll shoot yourself, where I drew attention to the mechanics of this being dangerous to what he calls the parry arm.

He describes moving the parry arm down, I described the same thing this way "as if you were starting to cross body gain access to your front right pocket." the direction of which would be down. He does mention the indexing the gun arm in the parry elbow where I put it between the wrist and elbow, in that regard, I was errant, and the gun arm is placed in the elbow. Ooops, couple of inches give or take :grin

Notice he mentions that the draw and fire 3 rounds should be about 1.5 seconds. With the majority of people running splits of .30 or more and draw strokes from 1.2-1.5 seconds from concealed [ many will be a lot slower ], it's not going to go well for the majority, and you'll remember I mentioned you needed to have a faster than normal draw stroke if you were going to pull this off which also mirrored Guantes' view. With .20 splits which isn't too hard to get to for most, you need a 1.1 second draw to fire from concealed to make the requisite time expressed by the originator as his opinion of the time constraints one should be able to meet. In this regard, we were also mirroring each others opinion based on training in this skill.

Nuff said, oh, BTW, make sure you tell him I said hello for me if you get to chatting with him. Haven't talked with him in near two years now.

 

[mike1956]

So, just exactly who originated your DATD technique and where is it taught?

I didn't state the DATD was mine Mac. What I wrote was:
"There are only 4 people authorized to train others in the skill tested in the real world [ myself being one of the four ] and advanced as a viable option by the originator." Not quite sure how you came to the conclusion from the above that this was something I developed.

The DC thread IS posted by the originator, the dep. [ Guantes by poster name Mac ]. It's not taught anywhere but by himself and 3 others he's given permission to teach it correctly as we demonstrated we had the skill down to his satisfaction. He's actually been out here to train one on one with me for 3 days for skills swaps and been in one of the courses here at "Sightless at Rio" as an adjunct instructor in the DATD, guys fast, been around the block a time or two. He mentions a select few he's passed this to, as i mentioned in the OP.

I never mentioned trapping, I stated "Your left hand has gained [ and maintains ] brief control of the wrist/hand of the perp". In the Cruise video, he doesn't trap the guys arm at all, nor does he gain control of it, nor does he even briefly gets control of it, he slaps it off his body and lets go, so I fail to see how it's the same as what you think you see that Cruise does in that clip. It's not even close.

His description is exactly what I posted in steps, he mentions blading which helps index the shooting arm on the parrying forearm. I didn't use the term indexing as he did/does in his post, and he indexes on the parry elbow where I just described it as placing the shooting arm on the parry arm. Then again, Guantes developed it, and would of course explain it better yet nothing in his post/description comes anywhere close to the Cruise scene. He doesn't mention the muzzle crossing the parry forearm, but states to make sure you index the gun hand correctly or you'll shoot yourself, where I drew attention to the mechanics of this being dangerous to what he calls the parry arm.

He describes moving the parry arm down, I described the same thing this way "as if you were starting to cross body gain access to your front right pocket." the direction of which would be down. He does mention the indexing the gun arm in the parry elbow where I put it between the wrist and elbow, in that regard, I was errant, and the gun arm is placed in the elbow. Ooops, couple of inches give or take :grin

Notice he mentions that the draw and fire 3 rounds should be about 1.5 seconds. With the majority of people running splits of .30 or more and draw strokes from 1.2-1.5 seconds from concealed [ many will be a lot slower ], it's not going to go well for the majority, and you'll remember I mentioned you needed to have a faster than normal draw stroke if you were going to pull this off which also mirrored Guantes' view. With .20 splits which isn't too hard to get to for most, you need a 1.1 second draw to fire from concealed to make the requisite time expressed by the originator as his opinion of the time constraints one should be able to meet. In this regard, we were also mirroring each others opinion based on training in this skill.

Nuff said, oh, BTW, make sure you tell him I said hello for me if you get to chatting with him. Haven't talked with him in near two years now.

You referenced this on another thread. It reminded me that Guantes hasn't been active on any of the forums I'm a part of for many years. Threads like this one are worthy of a re-visit from time to time.

 

[brownie]

You referenced this on another thread. It reminded me that Guantes hasn't been active on any of the forums I'm a part of for many years. Threads like this one are worthy of a re-visit from time to time.

I haven't spoken to Guantes in years, maybe since 08-09 now. I don't think Matt or 7677 have either.

 

[mike1956]

I haven't spoken to Guantes in years, maybe since 08-09 now. I don't think Matt or 7677 have either.

He hasn't posted on DC since 2014.

 

[brownie]

I suppose I could have incorporated the DATD in the pistol courses, but it wasn't something I felt a few minutes on would be performed correctly. If not performed correctly, it's even more dangerous than performing it perfectly through hundreds of reps till the muscle memory [ proprioception ] has been subconsciously ingrained into memory.

 

[7677]

Gloves is still alive and kicking!