[lilarmy2001]

After reading the article about the little dog shot and a thought last night I figured I would post this.

ok so here is a scenario that played out last night. The wife and I were taking a walk around 10pm we decide to walk down the road and back. we took our dog with us, she is a mut/pit mix. As we got close to our turn around point a lady who was sitting on her porch was getting ready to go inside. before she opened the door her big dog(dont know what kind) was barking like crazy at us. she didnt go inside until we passed and the dog calmed.

so the question... if you are in this scenario what actions would or could you take legally and personally if the dog got out and attacked? I was carrying at the time and was trying to think what i would do if it charged. to me I wasnt going to let anything attack my wife but dont know the legality of it. so, what would you say? and would having our dog make a difference in the decision?

 

[airhead]

The home-owner's dog was probably mad that your dog was in his "territory." The lady was wise in not opening the door until you passed and her dog calmed down.

If her dog had got out, the probable outcome would have been a dog fight on her sidewalk with one of you in the middle due to the leash. But it could just as easily seen you two as a threat and went after you as well or instead.

Depending on the size of her dog, you might have been in the right to shoot it. You are walking on a public sidewalk, outside the limits of her property and she sicked her dog on you. If it was a little yap dog, I'd have ignored it, but a large dog can be a serious threat in a hurry.

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

You would be authorized to use force to defend your dog against an attack by the other dog as Florida statute 767.03 states:

767.03 Good defense for killing dog.--In any action for damages or of a criminal prosecution against any person for killing or injuring a dog, satisfactory proof that said dog had been or was killing any animal included in the definitions of "domestic animal" and "livestock" as provided by s. 585.01 shall constitute a good defense to either of such actions.


of course, if the dog is attacking you and the dog has the ability to inflict great bodily harm or death, then you would be justified to use deadly force against the dog.

If its a small toy poodle and he comes yapping at your or bites your shoe, I would not shoot the dog.

I would not have shot the dog in this case either.
http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=3781

 

[Buckley]

You are permitted to defend yourself if a dog attacks. I would shoot the dog if it approached in a hostile manner. I would not care how big it is since it may not be current on its shots. Worse care scenario, I may have to pay for a new dog. Dog’s are personal property. Providing the shoot is justified, they could only sue for destruction of personal property. Even then, if the dog isn’t on a leash, the owner may have issues if his own.

After reading the article about the little dog shot and a thought last night I figured I would post this.

ok so here is a scenario that played out last night. The wife and I were taking a walk around 10pm we decide to walk down the road and back. we took our dog with us, she is a mut/pit mix. As we got close to our turn around point a lady who was sitting on her porch was getting ready to go inside. before she opened the door her big dog(dont know what kind) was barking like crazy at us. she didnt go inside until we passed and the dog calmed.

so the question... if you are in this scenario what actions would or could you take legally and personally if the dog got out and attacked? I was carrying at the time and was trying to think what i would do if it charged. to me I wasnt going to let anything attack my wife but dont know the legality of it. so, what would you say? and would having our dog make a difference in the decision?

 

[Paladin]

Be aware that if you shoot the dog you may end up having to shoot the owner also.

Shooting someone's dog is a personal thing and the situation can quickly escalate to violence.

My advice - carry pepper spray when out for a walk. Great first defense against animals and you can always fall back on your gun if the spray doesn't work.

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

You are permitted to defend yourself if a dog attacks. I would shoot the dog if it approached in a hostile manner. I would not care how big it is since it may not be current on its shots. Worse care scenario, I may have to pay for a new dog. Dog’s are personal property. Providing the shoot is justified, they could only sue for destruction of personal property. Even then, if the dog isn’t on a leash, the owner may have issues if his own.

Good point sir, I did not think of that.

 

[Buckley]

Be aware that if you shoot the dog you may end up having to shoot the owner also.

Shooting someone's dog is a personal thing and the situation can quickly escalate to violence.

My advice - carry pepper spray when out for a walk. Great first defense against animals and you can always fall back on your gun if the spray doesn't work.

Good point.

But I'm taking the dog out. If the owner is too stupid to leash its animal, and then confront someone that has just discharged a gun, I will have a realistic threat of immediate bodily injury, and a tactical reload may be in order.

Peper spray is fine but wind direction and speed are two additional variables to consider. I may reserve the peper spray for the owner.

If it's a big dog, like either of mine, most people will not have time to try spray. By the time the spray becomes effective (distance), that dog is ready to jump for the throat. Few people are fast enough to draw, target, and hit a moving object in that amount of time.

Then again, if the dog is really, really small, you can leave your weapon in its holster, and kick the dog for three points.

 

[Paladin]

Good point.

Then again, if the dog is really, really small, you can leave your weapon in its holster, and kick the dog for three points.

:rolf

Unfortunately like many other scenarios we face there is no hard and fast rules of engagement (outside of FL law) when dealing with these things.

 

[Buckley]

:rolf

Unfortunately like many other scenarios we face there is no hard and fast rules of engagement (outside of FL law) when dealing with these things.

Yea, you might move too quickly and be called off sides. Then you have to back up five yards. Then again, if the dog attacks and knocks you down, you get an automatic first and ten.

 

[brownie]

I don't think I'd need to kill a little 5# dog for any reason, even if he did bite my ankle. :rolf

On the other hand, I've been bitten by a trained police canine and I'll never let another dog bite me again if I sense any indication the dog has become a threat to me.

I don't care what the owners think, I don't care what the cops think when they arrive and I don't care what after action is taken for my shooting the dog afterward. ALL I care about is that I'm not bit again by a canine.

I can clearly articulate my past experience, the medical complications from the bite, the pain and suffering [ physical and mental ] and can demonstrate the need to take it out when threatened without hesitation as I would any living and breathing animal that thinks it's going to get a piece of me without taking damage themselves.

When it's me or them, it's them every time without hesitation. It can't be any other way. The police canine was very fortunate the handler was right there to stop me from drawing my own duty weapon which I was going for at the time or I'd have shot him in the head with extreme prejudice while he was attached to my butt/leg.

Brownie

 

[MPDC66]

As Paladin said, dog owners are pretty attached to their pets and them being a chattel won't help you if the owner sees it differently and has a bead on you. I honestly think the penalties for people who don't control their dogs are too light. It really isn't the dog's fault as he is following his nature and training. I control my dogs but IF you hurt one of them, YOU have a big problem. How big depends and my not being sure should be a cautionary factor. I say that with zero intent of allowing one of them to assault you and, frankly, don't think they ever would unless you actually attacked my wife or myself. The biggest control problem is usuallyother animals who ARE NOT leashed or, worse, allowed out by themselves to fend in a hostile world. Two great organizations , IMHO, NRA and ASPA. I support both.

Brownie, I totally understand what you are saying and in no way mean to counter a persons right to defend against an attack. However, some might be a bit too quick to shoot (like the chiuaua "attack dog") and while they may be just an object to a lawyer, they are family to many of us.

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

and while they may be just an object to a lawyer, they are family to many of us.

Okay, I know lots of people love their pets, but if they are that important to you, you should not allow them out of your yard.

Not being an : censored or trying to start stuff, but I also have the right to defend myself and I am more important than your animal.

 

[Xbonz]

Dog shoot

Perhaps a round of pellets(snake shot) as #1 in your weapon might be an answer. Might not kill the animal but should do enough damage to negate the attack. If not 2nd round would end it.

 

[brownie]

MPDC66,

Your point is well taken, I think the cop never had to shoot or taze that 5 pounder myself.

Let me rephrase my first post by stating I wouldn't be too quick on the trigger, but that 5.5 pound trigger will have my finger on it with the gun pointed at the dog at the slightest hint of uncontrolled aggression.

Might have to sacrifice an arm, but it will be dead sure as sh**. Having said that, I've owned attack trained dobies and sheps, and an Akita who didn't need the protection training who was that subtle and natural about the game rules of protecting my wife and I.

I understand exactly how people feel about their pets and have actually threatened to head shoot an arse wipe who thought he'd threaten the Akita after it had his Sharpei for lunch one day while it was aggressing against her in my yard off leash.

Got the cops on the phone on the cell to respond to my threat of violence and when they arrived, he was told he had better pay attention to my threats of retaliation should he attempt to or harm my Akita in any way [ I worked for the dept that responded and everyone knew mine as she was always with me ]. They understood they would respond to a bad scene if the guy persisted in threatening my dog.

He got the message and there was never a problem after that [ the Sharpei didn't make it ] so I fully understand your post and expressed thoughts on this issue.

I still remember that dog that bit me [ his name was Hans ]. Big SOB of a shep. Funny thing about the whole deal was that the city cop was very upset the dog bit me for it would have to be quarantined for two weeks. I told him not to worry, I'd get the bite taken care of and no report would be filed by the hospital or myself. Hans was brought back out of the cruiser and reintroduced to me at that point. The cop and I became good friends afterwards. He told me I could collect a quick 10K settlement from the city if I filed a report and I told him no thanks, his dog made a mistake [ I was also in uniform at the time dealing with a Cape Verdian melee in a parking lot. ]

Brownie

 

[MPDC66]

Okay, I know lots of people love their pets, but if they are that important to you, you should not allow them out of your yard.

Not being an : censored or trying to start stuff, but I also have the right to defend myself and I am more important than your animal.

Hey, read it again.:smack As far as your importance, depends!:rolf Which one of my animals you talkin' about , Willis?

Seriously, be careful as some folks actually center their lives around an animal and have no use at all for people. My point was legal wording won't protect you from an incensed owner whose best friend was just dropped by a "cowboy" with a permit and an excuse.:thumbsdwn

 

[lilarmy2001]

I fully understand the importance of having a pet as a family member and also how others feel. with that said my intentions were to try to figure out what would be the case in the slim chance that a 185 pound rottie(nothing against the breed) came charging out the door bee lining it for my wife. I can not take the chance that the dog will stop. I would hate to do that to someones pet or family member but i feel I would expect the same if it were my dog. I think as we treat them as one of our own they are infact animals. they are not always the loving family member we pet at night. sometimes things happen and in that instance you have to be understanding that fear and ones human life is more important then that animals.

 

[MPDC66]

I fully understand the importance of having a pet as a family member and also how others feel. with that said my intentions were to try to figure out what would be the case in the slim chance that a 185 pound rottie(nothing against the breed) came charging out the door bee lining it for my wife. I can not take the chance that the dog will stop. I would hate to do that to someones pet or family member but i feel I would expect the same if it were my dog. I think as we treat them as one of our own they are infact animals. they are not always the loving family member we pet at night. sometimes things happen and in that instance you have to be understanding that fear and ones human life is more important then that animals.

While I totally agree with what you have said, my point was to make you aware NOT EVERY dog owner does and, indeed, considers his/her dog more important than you. I doubt many would argue with the danger of being attacked by a raging Rottweiler. You could drown from the drool alone!

More importantly, people with Rottweilers tend to be security conscious so the dog MAY NOT BE THE ONLY WEAPON you will face. I am not condoning shooting someone for harming a dog BUT it could happen.

I am also painfully aware (the cops shooting the 5 lb. terror is a prime example) that there is no guarantee that my animal should he get out somehow without me, might be the target of a sadist looking for an excuse to bust a cap. DOA doesn't check that aspect of all its licensees.

 

[reckless01]

While I get the concept of "pet owners" treating their pets like kids, they should get the concept of keeping their kids from attacking by passers!

Its no different, if a teenager ran out of a house with a knife yelling and screaming coming right towards you would you try to kick him away or would you drop him like a cold sack of sand?

Dogs are no different with the exception that they don't know any fear of repercussions! People at least can see gestures towards a weapon or can somewhat be reasoned with. A large dog running through an open gate with a loud bark and shown teeth is IMO as hostile a gesture as if you walked out on your patio with a gun! As Brownie said I also have been attacked, my brother has been bitten 4 times, one time resulted in 3 surgeries one of which was reconstruction of his face. He had a family loved dalmatian rip his face off! :smack , was attacked by a police dog who ran off course and got him because he ran in fear of the oncoming attack which was NOT meant for him! He was bitten by that dog 5 times, one of them almost severed his Achilles tendon! One was a rottweiler that while being scratched behind the ear thought it'd be a novel idea to bite him on the arm several times, the other was some mutt that chased him when we were kids and bit him on the leg, that one needed stitches too!

I have seen the life changing events that a dog attack can cause! I have been bitten and had to go through the pain, and nervousness of not knowing if it had rabies, so I won't chance it!

Dog attacks, dog dies..right then...right there! If you as the owner choose to further perpetuate the killing by offering yourself as a deadly threat the paper will have something to write about in the morning edition!!

I love animals, I won't ever shoot at a silly little dog because I myself am a young bigger guy (6'4" 270lbs) and I'd be embarrassed to have to shoot a 10lb wiener dog, but anything over 50lbs is DOA! :ak

 

[Timbal]

Good topic!

Unfortunately, I grew up with zero interactions with dogs, so I've always held some trepidation against them. To me, being a 5'6" guy, with any sort of dog over 10 pounds charging at me, my first instinct is one of panic. That panic can very easily end with me drawing on the dog and shoot until it stops moving, since I've heard tons of stories where dogs have been severely injured yet keep going.

I also realize that for MANY folks their dogs are truly part of their family, and to them it would seem like I had no justification towards shooting the dog, so I've considered that plenty.

As someone had mentioned before, a dog does not have the capability to reason its' actions, so I can't "hope for the best" and assume the dog will change its' projected course. However, once the dog crosses my personal "defense bubble" and the owner hasn't restrained the dog by then, I'm sorry, but its' the dog or myself. As the primary caregiver of my family, I have a duty to them and myself to stay alive and healthy, and getting mauled violates that principle.

And yes, I'd reload ASAP with the spare mag I keep and warily watch the owner for any hostile reaction. Heck, I'd watch EVERYONE around me for a hostile reaction. You just don't know nowadays.

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

Wow. Interesting thread. A good number of you know what I do for a 'hobby'. Trust me...if you think you need to shoot a dog that is intent on attacking you, you better make that decision before you leave the house.

If it's going to happen, it's going to happen FAST. IF you have time to draw, you will most likely miss, and now you have a bullet (or more) unaccounted for (you've retained counsel, right?). If you actually hit the dog, most likely it won't kill it, and now what are you going to do? I've shot one dog, but that was after he was all ready attached to my own dog. A firearm is not your best defense against a dog, but if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Most dogs can be backed down with an aggressive display of force (arms wide, charging and yelling). Your best defense against a dog is a good, sturdy baton or walking stick.

As Brownie will tell you, a good sized dog can do a helluva lot of damage in a very short period of time (seconds). I've deployed K9s a few times, and the results are NOT pretty. Do what you have to do to take care of the situation, but be very aware of your limitations.