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Do You Train/Practice For Speed

2K views 56 replies 9 participants last post by  mike1956 
#1 ·
I'm just wondering whether speed from concealment is something that is important to members here. I seldom see it discussed.

Is speed a part of your practice/training routine?

If so, is a shot timer a part of that routine?
 
#2 · (Edited)

Post 5 are my thoughts on draw speed from 2009

And this one from 2016


I've used a shot timer, not for training, but to establish what those decades of training brought to the plate relative speed of presentation. I saw no need for a timer for training.

Be all you can be over a period of intense training and multiples of rds downrange, then use a timer to see what all the practice has produced. Not happy with the time, practice more, much more.

Bryce and Jordan would stand in front of a full length mirror for hours practicing their draw, both from open and concealed carry. If ya don't put in the time, you're mediocre at best. That's fine if you're one who believes mediocre is perfectly fine. Mediocre is perfectly acceptable for many. We see that on every gun board.
 
#5 ·

Post 5 are my thoughts on draw speed from 2009

And this one from 2016


I've used a shot timer, not for training, but to establish what those decades of training brought to the plate relative speed of presentation. I saw no need for a timer for training.

Be all you can be over a period of intense training and multiples of rds downrange, then use a timer to see what all the practice has produced. Not happy with the time, practice more, much more.

Bryce and Jordan would stand in front of a full length mirror for hours practicing their draw, both from open and concealed carry. If ya don't put in the time, you're mediocre at best. That's fine if you're one who believes mediocre is perfectly fine. Mediocre is perfectly acceptable for many. We see that on every gun board.
All great stuff. I'm glad to be a part of your choir.
 
#3 ·
What brownie said.
 
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#6 ·
Another thought regarding Brownie's post.

The shot timer has indeed become an integral part of my training, not only as a measure of my speed, but also as an indicator of the window I'm striving to operate within. My current goal is a reliable A-zone hit from concealment in less than one second. Both during dry and live fire sessions, I'll run the shot timer set with a one-second par time. I've been able to break that one second down into three distinct actions, with a decent idea of where I need to be when I hear the timer. If my cover garment hasn't been cleared and my draw grip achieved by the end of the .3 second beep, I know that I'm behind the curve and needing to make up some time on step two.

It's essentially the same thing for the 25-yard A-zone shot, except I have the extra time for step three, painting the target with the dot and pulling the trigger. The timer not only measures my time, it also helps me with muscle memory and efficiency throughout the process.
 
#7 ·
My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.
 
#8 ·
My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.
I'll take all that to mean that speed and accuracy aren't what you train and practice for. Thanks!
 
#12 ·
My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.
Well Ronnie, I'm not sure if you ever worked the streets, ever had a DGU event in the civilian world or not. I can state emphatically that had I not practiced to a fast draw stroke, I'd not have survived at least two events [ and I've never shot myself in the leg in practice nor in the wild.

Speed of presentation, hundreds of students through the pistol course where each was forced to draw fast and make hits. NOT one of those students shot themselves in the leg drawing with speed. Most had never tried to be as fast as they were in the courses, so the muscle memory wasn't there when they arrived, but two days later that muscle memory was well developed through hundreds of draw strokes.

People who poo poo a fast draw stroke are usually the ones who never trained to have that talent. It's nothing more than developing one's twitch muscles and proprioception. Doesn't take a lifetime to develop said speed of presentation. Hundreds of students would tell you that's absolutely true, they were part and parcel to being able, in just two days, to have said fast draw stroke.

I can tell you this though, an oh sheet moment doesn't require one to remain calm.. How do we know that? In the face of life and death events, our heart rates elevate to over 100bpm. There are few will train to keep that heart rate below 80 when startled.. I know I haven't trained for that, but I do know this-- an elevated heart rate doesn't mean one can't perform admirably like defending themselves out of hand.

There is NO calm when taking incoming, so one learns to command their functions while enjoying that elevated heart rate. You either have no experience on the street in DGU's or you've just become too cynical in your old age to understand the dynamics people work through "on the fly". Those who register elevated heart bpm's AND have the training/skills do a whole lot better than those who haven't trained for the fight [ either simulated stress like FoF or live fire exercises.

Now if you're a mediocre shooter at best, have no formal training in surviving DGU's, then perhaps when startled, you'll panic and excede your present abilities [ through a lack of prior training ]. But that's not the story with well trained people who've let their body develop their twitch muscles and proprioception under duress. Examples would be Bryce, Jordan, Col. Askins, Fairbairn/Sykes, Applegate.

Far too many people who carry flat out suck when it comes to being fast in their responses, strictly due to lack of training and developing those proprioceptors. These are the types that don't believe all that prior training is all that beneficial. You seem to fall into this category of gun carrier. It's okay to be mediocre, it's okay to not want to spend the time and money it takes to develop speed.

"thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg."

I'm not sure how much thinking goes into putting lead on threat when the first shot comes at 1 second or less. The thinking, that should take place in training environs, not on the street when it's for all the marbles [ and that's where the majority of shooters are in this country ]
 
#18 ·
I did not say to not train and practice, I have been in a few very bad situations in Nam and a few here in America and I am still here. My first time in Nam, I was pretty well shaking and thank God a Sargent was there and saved me and my person I was driving for. He took me aside later and explained the stay calm to me. The few events after was when I learned best how to defend myself and I never ever forgot his advice.
I did practice and train my brain. (((A LOT)))
I still have a knife scar in my side from an event in Hunts Point New York back in 1979. I stayed very calm and my North American arms saved the day.
I also at one time in Miami when going into a warehouse late at night seen a big guy have a police officer up against a wall trying to get the officers gum. I got out of my truck and put my shotgun against the attackers head. The guy was cuffed and the cop told me to go so I would not be stuck with all the red tape crap.

And, Brownie, You of all people should know how getting all excited and not thinking straight is "NOT" the way to go in a situation.
PRACTICE - PRACTICE & more PRACTICE is what is needed, But you know as well as I do that not all gun owners will take the time to learn anything about how to react.
Ronnie
 
#20 ·
I did not say to not train and practice, I have been in a few very bad situations in Nam and a few here in America and I am still here. My first time in Nam, I was pretty well shaking and thank God a Sargent was there and saved me and my person I was driving for. He took me aside later and explained the stay calm to me. The few events after was when I learned best how to defend myself and I never ever forgot his advice.
I did practice and train my brain. (((A LOT)))
I still have a knife scar in my side from an event in Hunts Point New York back in 1979. I stayed very calm and my North American arms saved the day.
I also at one time in Miami when going into a warehouse late at night seen a big guy have a police officer up against a wall trying to get the officers gum. I got out of my truck and put my shotgun against the attackers head. The guy was cuffed and the cop told me to go so I would not be stuck with all the red tape crap.

And, Brownie, You of all people should know how getting all excited and not thinking straight is "NOT" the way to go in a situation.
PRACTICE - PRACTICE & more PRACTICE is what is needed, But you know as well as I do that not all gun owners will take the time to learn anything about how to react.
Ronnie
Sorry, I didn't realize that you're an old guy when I was making my snarky retorts.

Do you still train/practice?
 
#25 ·
With the way the people that are supposed to put criminals and thugs off the streets are doing things, We all need to be very careful wherever we go.
The Police lock them up and the Prosecutor or a Judge will turn them out to activate another crime.
Revolving door justice.
Ronnie
 
#28 ·
I truly wish our ranges down here allowed us to even simply draw and fire. But they don’t. As with Brownies recent thread it’s difficult to practice things which are not allowed basically anywhere we shoot. Just a simple quick trip and 100rnds a week practiced and one’s abilities get better. But standing static punching paper gets boring real quick.
 
#30 ·
we perceive things is our reality.

brownie and I have had some disagreements on 'speed'. From my perspective, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is lethal, unless you are moving so fast that you miss. The more you practice the right things, the faster you will go if you push yourself. Brownie thinks the opposite. Start as fast as you can and then slow it down until you are accurate. Either way works, as long as you work at it.

He's 100% accurate, no pun intended, about the need to 'present' with alacrity. Odds are as concealed we are all ready playing catch up.
 
#31 ·
I believe there is a fair amount of confusion regarding speed. Perhaps I can help out.

Slow is slow. Slow might be smooth, but it is still slow. It can be comparatively slow, but still slow.

Smooth can be slow. It can also be fast. It can be anywhere in between.

Fast is fast. It is never slow. It might be smooth, or it might not. It is always fast. Comparatively fast, perhaps, but fast nonetheless.

Hope this helps.
 
#34 ·
Developed by Chuck Taylor, this is one of the most difficult pistol courses in the world. Currently, only 12 people hold this rank. It is included here for your interest--this is not an official document.


Target and Scoring: The test is shot on Chuck Taylor's proprietary target: a camoflaged silhouette roughly the same dimensions as an IPSC target, with an inner torso zone (X ring) of 11 by 13 inches, and an ocular zone (Y ring) of 3 by 4 inches. Hits in the X or Y zones count 5 points; hits on the target outside these zones count 3 (major caliber), or 2 (minor caliber) points.


The Test: All weapon presentations are from the holster. The test must be shot in this order, in its entirety.


STANDARD EXERCISES: 2 shots on torso (a 13" x 11" scoring area); perform each once. Total of 80 pts.


1 meter (m), Speed Rock, 1.0 second (sec)


1 m, Step Back, 1.0 sec


3 m, 1.0 sec


7 m, 1.3 sec


10 m, 1.7 sec


15 m, 2.2 sec


25 m, 2.7 sec


50 m, 6.0 sec


SINGLES (Presentations): 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 25 pts.


7 m, 1.0 sec


PIVOTS and TURNS: 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 75 pts.


90 degree pivot to the right, 1.0 sec


90 degree pivot to the left, 1.0 sec


180 degree turn, 1.2 sec


MULTIPLE TARGETS: 1 shot on each as listed. All shot from 5 m. Total of 45 pts. Targets are 1 m apart center to center.


2 targets, 1.2 sec


3 targets, 1.5 sec


4 targets, 1.8 sec


HEAD SHOTS: 1 shot per command. Total of 45 pts.


5 m, 1.0 sec. Perform a total of 4 times.


7 m, 1.2 sec. Perform a total of 5 times.


AMBIDEXTROUS STANDARD: 1 shot on each target. Total of 30 pts. Time limit 6.0 sec. Perform once.


7 m; candidate draws, fires 1 round at each of 3 targets, speed loads, transfers gun to weak hand, then fires 1 more shot at each target weak hand unsupported.


HOSTAGE SITUATIONS: 1 shot on each. Perform each a total of 5 times. Shot from 7 m. Total of 50 pts. Time limit: 1.2 sec each.


Head shot on felon past left side of hostage's head. Perform a total of 5 times.


Head shot on felon past right side of hostages head. Perform a total of 5 times.


TARGETS AT ODD ANGLES: 60% obscured by cover. 1 shot each. Shot from 7 m. Perform each a total of five times. Total of 50 pts. Time Limit: 1.2 sec each.


Target looking around right side of cover.


Target looking around left side of cover.


Next is the weapon handling phase. No points are earned, only deducted.


SPEED LOADING; NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 1.5 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.


TACTICAL LOADING. NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 4.0 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.


MALFUNCTION CLEARANCE DRILLS. NO SHOOTING. CLEARANCE DRILLS ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times within time limits listed below. Possible total deduction of 75 pts from shooting score.


Position One (Failure to Fire): 1.0 sec


Position Two (Failure to Eject): 1.0 sec


Position Three (Feedway Stoppage): 4.0 sec


Qualification:


Possible total is 400 pts. You need 360 pts (90%) to pass. Penalties are assessed as follows:


5 pts are deducted from candidates score for each occurrence of the following offenses:


Premature start/"creeping"


Overtime shot. If caused by a malfunction and candidate properly clears it, no penalty is assessed.


Hit on hostage or object designated as cover.


Overtime speed load, tactical load or malfunction clearance.
 
#35 ·
#38 ·
Another fast shooter was Ed MCGivern, I have his book called fast and fancy revolver shooting. He was faster than Bryce. He worked with law enforcement later in his career with firearms.

Just an fyi in case someone was interested in reading about what was possible with revolvers
 
#39 ·
A few years back, Marvel Comics creator Stan Lee hosted a show entitled "Stan Lee's Superhumans" on the History Channel. One of the people he featured was Bob Munden who, at the time of filming still walked in the land of the living. Had Jelly Bryce or Ed McGivern still walked there, they could have as easily been featured. These guys were indeed "superhuman"--reflexes, reaction times, hand-eye coordination and dedication all came together to give them the incredible skills that they demonstrated. Of all those qualities they developed, I'm thinking that one-in-a-million reaction times played heavily into their abilities.

I've mentioned having trained under Scott Jedlinski, who founded and operates Modern Samurai Project along with his wife Bev. He demo's everything he teaches, and even some stuff he doesn't directly teach. His speed and accuracy are impressive. In a demo I watched in person, he was chasing (and surpassed) his own best time on a timed drill that starts out aimed at the first of several targets. The shot timer sounds, and he already has the first target. His time from the beginning of the beep to first shot was .07 seconds. My best time similarly gauged is .13, which is fast. Normal reaction time is somewhere in the .2 realm. Fast reaction times are in the .1's. .07 puts a guy well out in front of the rest of the pack before ever touching the gun.
 
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