[mike1956]

I spoke with Munden twice back in 2000 and 2001 about attending his week long instructional course using six shooters. Figured I could pick up some tips on the speed front. Alas, he required you purchase a firearm maker of his choosing, send him the gun and he'd work his comp magic on it for the course.

Not including air fare and room/food, it was a 5K proposition. I decided I didn't need to spend that kind of money to perhaps gain a few thousandths off draw speed.

I know he was building six shooters for aspirants at one time, with a sound rationale. The beatings such guns take will make short work of factory parts and springs.

This segment is what inspired me to pursue point-shooting skills, not to be like Bob Munden, but to be a point-shooting Mike1956. Eventually, that brought me around to Brownie's training.

At the end of the video, he draws, cocks his SA pistol, fires, cocks and fires again in under 1/10 of a second while making precision hits.

 

[Calimwulf]

I believe there is a fair amount of confusion regarding speed. Perhaps I can help out.

Slow is slow. Slow might be smooth, but it is still slow. It can be comparatively slow, but still slow.

Smooth can be slow. It can also be fast. It can be anywhere in between.

Fast is fast. It is never slow. It might be smooth, or it might not. It is always fast. Comparatively fast, perhaps, but fast nonetheless.

Hope this helps.

Rushing to hit a target is the fastest way to miss it.

I'm going to use brownie as an example. He is wicked fast and shoots accurately. He didn't strike me as the flinching type.

It's that combination that allows 'successful' gun usage against armed targets. Add some 'luck' and 'common sense' and one can grow old.

Speed alone isn't poo. How one attains that 'combination' is up for debate.

 

[Coops]

I truly wish our ranges down here allowed us to even simply draw and fire. But they don’t. As with Brownies recent thread it’s difficult to practice things which are not allowed basically anywhere we shoot. Just a simple quick trip and 100rnds a week practiced and one’s abilities get better. But standing static punching paper gets boring real quick.

Same here. I'd love to draw from holster but the range does not allow it.

 

[7.62Kolectr]

Same here. I'd love to draw from holster but the range does not allow it.

I know some people that live elsewhere and their range will allow them to draw after going thru a modest demo and observance from the RSO. Then they get signed off on and get a little necklace badge to wear to show they’ve been qualified and approved to draw and shoot. I’ve suggested it to the one place I go to often but it sounded too much like work to them so they balked. Meanwhile cops and armed guards with specific certs are allowed to do it. Makes no sense to me but it ain’t my place so oh well.

 

[Coops]

They told me they used to allow it, but too many people shot up their benches and they judged it too dangerous.

 

[mike1956]

Rushing to hit a target is the fastest way to miss it.

I'm going to use brownie as an example. He is wicked fast and shoots accurately. He didn't strike me as the flinching type.

It's that combination that allows 'successful' gun usage against armed targets. Add some 'luck' and 'common sense' and one can grow old.

Speed alone isn't poo. How one attains that 'combination' is up for debate.

I'm missing what is being argued here. Speed and accuracy are the results of efficient, effective technique. Learn the technique, practice it, and perfect it and voila, you get to sit with Brownie at the grown-up table.

 

[brownie]

I know some people that live elsewhere and their range will allow them to draw after going thru a modest demo and observance from the RSO. Then they get signed off on and get a little necklace badge to wear to show they’ve been qualified and approved to draw and shoot. I’ve suggested it to the one place I go to often but it sounded too much like work to them so they balked. Meanwhile cops and armed guards with specific certs are allowed to do it. Makes no sense to me but it ain’t my place so oh well.

Discrimination law suit will get you shooting from the holster too

 

[brownie]

I'm missing what is being argued here. Speed and accuracy are the results of efficient, effective technique. Learn the technique, practice it, and perfect it and voila, you get to sit with Brownie at the grown-up table.

I sit off the main table.

Rushing to hit a target is the fastest way to miss it.

I'm going to use brownie as an example. He is wicked fast and shoots accurately. He didn't strike me as the flinching type.

It's that combination that allows 'successful' gun usage against armed targets. Add some 'luck' and 'common sense' and one can grow old.

Speed alone isn't poo. How one attains that 'combination' is up for debate.

I've done that on several outing in practice, but I was solely after the development of the twitch muscles.

 

[7.62Kolectr]

Discrimination law suit will get you shooting from the holster too

Might also get one banned from going there. It’s a private business and their rules. No different than ‘no shirt, no shoes, no service’ signs.

 

[brownie]

Might also get one banned from going there. It’s a private business and their rules. No different than ‘no shirt, no shoes, no service’ signs.

Class action lawsuit, your problem solved. Might get to shoot from the holster and a free lifetime membership on top of anything monetarily

 

[Calimwulf]

I'm missing what is being argued here. Speed and accuracy are the results of efficient, effective technique. Learn the technique, practice it, and perfect it and voila, you get to sit with Brownie at the grown-up table.

'Fast is Fast' as a phrase has the same failing that 'slow is smooth, smooth is fast' does, and it's obvious that it was developed as a counter to an existing school of thought.

Both schools have the same goal: Speed and Accuracy

The question of start fast or start slow, can be argued, legitimately, as long as no one forgets or fails to understand that it's the shared goal that is critically important to survival.

Are you a student of history or bad movies? Acolytes who start to set rules for whom their master is allowed to associate with tend to meet bad ends.

 

[mike1956]

Are you a student of history or bad movies? Acolytes who start to set rules for whom their master is allowed to associate with tend to meet bad ends.

I was tracking right up to that point, at which point you totally lost me. Could you explain more specifically?

 

[brownie]

'Fast is Fast' as a phrase has the same failing that 'slow is smooth, smooth is fast' does, and it's obvious that it was developed as a counter to an existing school of thought.

Both schools have the same goal: Speed and Accuracy

The question of start fast or start slow, can be argued, legitimately, as long as no one forgets or fails to understand that it's the shared goal that is critically important to survival.

Are you a student of history or bad movies? Acolytes who start to set rules for whom their master is allowed to associate with tend to meet bad ends.

I started slow, for 10 years anyway. In that time, I'd not shot in matches, just lazily playing at the range shooting tiny little groups like most people.

Then I was taught how to stay alive with a handgun in 81. The rules changed that week for me. No more slow lazy days at the range plinking tiny little groups as I was working the streets and would be working with that group of people from time to time overseas in some nasty biz.

From that moment I got back from the compound, it was train to speed of draw to hits, speed of split times. So I started that road not as a novice, but shooting in a manner that would not afford me much life expectancy in the games I was playing and would be playing in the future.

Built the speed of draw just from practicing draw strokes over some time. Then, not being happy with the slower than I wanted progress of speed trying to concentrate on accuracy [ at least combat accuracy ], having discovered how twitch muscles are developed, I would run the gun out of control. I was only interested in trigger speed [ the training of the trigger finger to move faster for more shots per second ]. Isolating the training of the trigger finger, isolated the draw stroke and then the two came together when paired in a sequence of draw and fire practice.

I wouldn't recommend nor condone anyone that's a novice at handgun skills to instantly trying to shoot out of control to gain trigger speed anymore than I'd recommend or condone a new/novice shooter start yanking the gun out of the holster in an effort to be fast. Both would be unsafe for a novice, not well heeled in running a gun to begin with.

Lets say for the first 10 years, I advanced to a 6th grade level, after the boys showed me some real skills for the streets, lets say I went from 6th to 12th grade in the next year. And within two more years, I'd graduated college with a masters degree.

So, 10 years to get out of grade school, just 1 year to 12th and 2 more to a masters degree. There's a learning curve, but the more you have as a base, the faster you find can move through the grades till you're an accomplished SD pistol shooter with numerous skills behind you.

 

[mike1956]

I started slow, for 10 years anyway. In that time, I'd not shot in matches, just lazily playing at the range shooting tiny little groups like most people.

Then I was taught how to stay alive with a handgun in 81. The rules changed that week for me. No more slow lazy days at the range plinking tiny little groups as I was working the streets and would be working with that group of people from time to time overseas in some nasty biz.

From that moment I got back from the compound, it was train to speed of draw to hits, speed of split times. So I started that road not as a novice, but shooting in a manner that would not afford me much life expectancy in the games I was playing and would be playing in the future.

Built the speed of draw just from practicing draw strokes over some time. Then, not being happy with the slower than I wanted progress of speed trying to concentrate on accuracy [ at least combat accuracy ], having discovered how twitch muscles are developed, I would run the gun out of control. I was only interested in trigger speed [ the training of the trigger finger to move faster for more shots per second ]. Isolating the training of the trigger finger, isolated the draw stroke and then the two came together when paired in a sequence of draw and fire practice.

I wouldn't recommend nor condone anyone that's a novice at handgun skills to instantly trying to shoot out of control to gain trigger speed anymore than I'd recommend or condone a new/novice shooter start yanking the gun out of the holster in an effort to be fast. Both would be unsafe for a novice, not well heeled in running a gun to begin with.

Lets say for the first 10 years, I advanced to a 6th grade level, after the boys showed me some real skills for the streets, lets say I went from 6th to 12th grade in the next year. And within two more years, I'd graduated college with a masters degree.

So, 10 years to get out of grade school, just 1 year to 12th and 2 more to a masters degree. There's a learning curve, but the more you have as a base, the faster you find can move through the grades till you're an accomplished SD pistol shooter with numerous skills behind you.

I too started out and stayed slow on the draw from concealment for several years. I adhered to the second-and-a-half "standard" being adequate during that time. My speed draw consisted of a haphazard draw to a crappy grip to a frantic trigger yank. I could hit the 2/3 silhouette most of the time at seven yards, the standard of the school I frequently attended.

Eventually, I decided I needed to up my game a bit, and took your class in Florida. Coming out of the holster at point-shooting distances became fast and combat accurate. Adding to that, I adopted a pocket carry set-up to my repertoire. That was when too fast, too hard, out of control ceased to be an option. I got so fast that the steps were becoming blurred, and I felt that any faster would be hazardous and unsafe. I hit the .5 second range, and left it at that.

I moved from strong side to appendix carry out of necessity after some weight loss. The ease of draw allowed me to up my draw times from concealment to the 1.3-1.4-second range. Still frenetic and haphazard, but smoother (see what I did there?) than my work from strong side carry. I could accomplish those times with the dot, but it was more of a point shoulder than pick up the dot method of aim.

A few things happened, and I realized that I was very unsatisfied with my times and results. I sought out a competent red dot instructor after a few "red dot workshops" that were pretty much pointless, and received instruction very similar to what you do with point shooting--indexing, grip, draw, presentation, sight picture, etc, and have been acquiring the skills ever since. The thing about AIWB vs the pocket carry experience is that I've been able to remain safe as I press the speed. My finger never reaches the trigger before it's time (countless reps creating the muscle memory), and I can push hard and fast.

During this process, I've learned techniques that will not work for me (mashing a fingernail on the belt buckle, for instance), while incorporating and cleaning up what I was taught in the class. The work continues, improvement and efficiency continue, and my dedication to and enthusiasm toward the process remain high.

 

[Rick McC.]

Discrimination law suit will get you shooting from the holster too

Maybe; or one could just shoot IDPA.
I’m so blessed that my range has weekly IDPA practices in addition to the monthly matches!

 

[brownie]

Maybe; or one could just shoot IDPA.
I’m so blessed that my range has weekly IDPA practices in addition to the monthly matches!

You are at that. And an excellent way to keep up on some of the skills. Bladnbullet does or at least used to do the same thing to stay sharp on the skill. Not gaming it, running it like it was the street. He takes his penalties when he thinks he's got a better real world solution.

 

[mike1956]

You are at that. And an excellent way to keep up on some of the skills. Bladnbullet does or at least used to do the same thing to stay sharp on the skill. Not gaming it, running it like it was the street. He takes his penalties when he thinks he's got a better real world solution.

I often do the same thing in some of the gun classes I take (not from anyone here). Instructor/school dogma and doctrine sometimes lack effective real world application.

I put two to the orbital sockets of a hostage-taker in a class earlier this year, and the clip-board carrying assistant instructor solemnly announced that I had failed that phase of the scenario because you're only supposed to fire one round on the hostage target. I replied that since my first round didn't end the situation, I went ahead and fired again in an effort to solve the problem. If the first round doesn't solve the problem, I still have the problem.

Forward aggressive isosceles is another one. It simply doesn't serve me as effectively as other approaches, so I reject it, to the chagrin of instructors who preach its supposed attributes.

That whole check 360 while standing with the gun in front of you is another one. A great way to get punched in the face, or worse in the real deal.

Solve the problem, take the penalty.