[brownie]

I did not say to not train and practice, I have been in a few very bad situations in Nam and a few here in America and I am still here. My first time in Nam, I was pretty well shaking and thank God a Sargent was there and saved me and my person I was driving for. He took me aside later and explained the stay calm to me. The few events after was when I learned best how to defend myself and I never ever forgot his advice.
I did practice and train my brain. (((A LOT)))
I still have a knife scar in my side from an event in Hunts Point New York back in 1979. I stayed very calm and my North American arms saved the day.
I also at one time in Miami when going into a warehouse late at night seen a big guy have a police officer up against a wall trying to get the officers gum. I got out of my truck and put my shotgun against the attackers head. The guy was cuffed and the cop told me to go so I would not be stuck with all the red tape crap.

And, Brownie, You of all people should know how getting all excited and not thinking straight is "NOT" the way to go in a situation.
PRACTICE - PRACTICE & more PRACTICE is what is needed, But you know as well as I do that not all gun owners will take the time to learn anything about how to react.
Ronnie

With speed and combat accuracy. The more of both, the better.

 

[mike1956]

I was there. Didn't learn to stay alive with a handgun until SIONICS however.

I wasn't at either place, which is why I'm more a listener when guys who were are speaking to their experiences.

 

[BeerHunter]

I was there. Didn't learn to stay alive with a handgun until SIONICS however.

Key words there for Ronnie and others, ". . .with a handgun." 🤠

 

[brownie]

I wasn't at either place, which is why I'm more a listener when guys who were are speaking to their experiences.

Ronnie relates his experiences in the RVN. I didn't carry a pistol in combat there, I was part of a team at all times. On the streets, I carry a pistol exclusively, and I'm mostly going to be alone to solve the problem with no assistance from team members.

Two different worlds to live or die in IMO. What being in a combat zone did do was to innoculate you to the stress of battles/incoming. The more you experienced that, the better prepared you were to get to fighting effectively.

I was a slow to draw, slow to shoot, sights user making tiny little groups for just 10 years before being shown how to stay alive with a handgun in 81. That was a good decision attending that counter terr course, I'd only been working the streets for 4 years at that time. In the following years, the work became absolutely dangerous to my health, and that training in 81 stood me well carrying a handgun [ or two ] on the streets chasing hardened criminals assoc. with LCN members.

 

[Ronnie948]

With the way the people that are supposed to put criminals and thugs off the streets are doing things, We all need to be very careful wherever we go.
The Police lock them up and the Prosecutor or a Judge will turn them out to activate another crime.
Revolving door justice.
Ronnie

 

[Calimwulf]

Therein is the problem with most gun carriers, they think drilling tiny little groups makes them a pistolero of magnitude on the street when the balloon goes up. They are ill prepared for the fight, because they haven't trained for the fight.

I was one of those people myself once upon a time. But working the streets, I knew I needed more skills than drilling tiny little groups which I do handily on command. Had I not attended SIONICS where I learned to survive DGU's [ learning to stay alive with a handgun ] I'd have been planted in the ground starting somewhere in the early 80's.

Speed of presentation kept me above ground for 28 years working the streets and "events" I was asked to participate in OCONUS during the 80's.

I'm older and slower today than I used to be 40 years ago. Slower for me is likely still giving me an advantage over the majority of shooters out there. Just 3 years ago, I had a Delta operator [ out of the service for just a few years and roughly 30 years of age ] who didn't think I could make him faster at hits on threat. He was willing to see what I could do for him though, based on a US Ranger telling him he's learn to be faster to first shot on threat.

I was in my mid 60's at the time. I had him stand next to me to my left so I could peripherally see his hand move to the gun on his belt, that would be my signal to draw and fire. Remember now, he's former Delta, all they do is shoot houses and missions. When his hand moved to the gun, I put two into my target before he got a shot off.

Dumbfounded that someone twice his age could make him look like a 3rd grader, he smiled at me and said "I'm all ears sir". He was enlightened all day in several skills. I remember him working the QK hip one shot on each of two threats. His speed was good, but I had to tell him to stop dogging it and shoot faster. He said he couldn't shoot any faster, then within the next 5 minutes being pushed, he saw he was faster. And he didn't shoot his leg all day either

The mind is the limiting factor.

You were gifted at birth with the speed of a mongoose boss. One thing I talked to my grandson about when he started martial arts and he tried sparing with me, I'm not fast. I have trained reflexes so it might make me look fast.

You sir, have both.

 

[brownie]

You were gifted at birth with the speed of a mongoose boss. One thing I talked to my grandson about when he started martial arts and he tried sparing with me, I'm not fast. I have trained reflexes so it might make me look fast.

You sir, have both.

I wasn't so much gifted naturally, my eye/hand coordination started at the tender age of 9. My father would take me to the back yard after dinner every night and throw fast balls [ he had an arm on him and could certainly reach 85, maybe up to 90mph ] at me. Right at me, at my head, at my feet for an hour every night. He'd mix that up with throwing the ball out of sight, and I had to spot it and move to catch it, he didn't make it easy. He had bought me a professional baseball glove that was way too big for me, but I learned to control it in short order. He'd have me bat against fast balls too, until by the age of 10, I could hit whatever he threw. He also taught me how to throw a curve ball about 10 and made me throw for hours every month [ just in 4th grade as it were ].

That eye/hand coordination developed into my being pretty fast on the reflexes, so when I played little league/baberuth/HS baseball I had that large scooping glove compared to the other kids when playing first base. I pitched and kids couldn't hit the curve balls I'd throw. My batting average was always over 350, the speed with which the kids pitched was like playing slow pitch softball.

I didn't recognize what talents he'd given me in those formative years until years later. He gave me an edge against kids I'd play against, the coaches all saw it on the field. I wasn't some clumsy kid running around trying to catch a ball, hit a ball, etc.

 

[7.62Kolectr]

I truly wish our ranges down here allowed us to even simply draw and fire. But they don’t. As with Brownies recent thread it’s difficult to practice things which are not allowed basically anywhere we shoot. Just a simple quick trip and 100rnds a week practiced and one’s abilities get better. But standing static punching paper gets boring real quick.

 

[7.62Kolectr]

I wasn't so much gifted naturally, my eye/hand coordination started at the tender age of 9. My father would take me to the back yard after dinner every night and throw fast balls [ he had an arm on him and could certainly reach 85, maybe up to 90mph ] at me. Right at me, at my head, at my feet for an hour every night. He'd mix that up with throwing the ball out of sight, and I had to spot it and move to catch it, he didn't make it easy. He had bought me a professional baseball glove that was way too big for me, but I learned to control it in short order. He'd have me bat against fast balls too, until by the age of 10, I could hit whatever he threw. He also taught me how to throw a curve ball about 10 and made me throw for hours every month [ just in 4th grade as it were ].

That eye/hand coordination developed into my being pretty fast on the reflexes, so when I played little league/baberuth/HS baseball I had that large scooping glove compared to the other kids when playing first base. I pitched and kids couldn't hit the curve balls I'd throw. My batting average was always over 350, the speed with which the kids pitched was like playing slow pitch softball.

I didn't recognize what talents he'd given me in those formative years until years later. He gave me an edge against kids I'd play against, the coaches all saw it on the field. I wasn't some clumsy kid running around trying to catch a ball, hit a ball, etc.

I played basketball and raced dirt bikes growing up. My 16yr old son throws low 90s now and faces them regularly. Sometimes he sees my frustration on a strike out and on the way back to the dugout will say to me ‘you try it!’
Nnnnnope. I seen the ball marks on his back to know even he can’t get out of the way sometimes. 🤣 Baseball ain’t for me. But it is impressive to see him connect with 90s on the radar gun. Speaking of baseball hitting a 90+ mph round ball with a round bat is one of the hardest things to do in sports. Basically one has the time of a blink of an eye to decide whether to swing or not. Add in a slider, a curveball, a change up and others and it gets exponentially harder. Stand behind home plate and watch how much that ball ‘moves’.

 

[Calimwulf]

we perceive things is our reality.

I'm just wondering whether speed from concealment is something that is important to members here. I seldom see it discussed.

Is speed a part of your practice/training routine?

If so, is a shot timer a part of that routine?

brownie and I have had some disagreements on 'speed'. From my perspective, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is lethal, unless you are moving so fast that you miss. The more you practice the right things, the faster you will go if you push yourself. Brownie thinks the opposite. Start as fast as you can and then slow it down until you are accurate. Either way works, as long as you work at it.

He's 100% accurate, no pun intended, about the need to 'present' with alacrity. Odds are as concealed we are all ready playing catch up.

 

[mike1956]

we perceive things is our reality.

brownie and I have had some disagreements on 'speed'. From my perspective, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is lethal, unless you are moving so fast that you miss. The more you practice the right things, the faster you will go if you push yourself. Brownie thinks the opposite. Start as fast as you can and then slow it down until you are accurate. Either way works, as long as you work at it.

He's 100% accurate, no pun intended, about the need to 'present' with alacrity. Odds are as concealed we are all ready playing catch up.

I believe there is a fair amount of confusion regarding speed. Perhaps I can help out.

Slow is slow. Slow might be smooth, but it is still slow. It can be comparatively slow, but still slow.

Smooth can be slow. It can also be fast. It can be anywhere in between.

Fast is fast. It is never slow. It might be smooth, or it might not. It is always fast. Comparatively fast, perhaps, but fast nonetheless.

Hope this helps.

 

[brownie]

we perceive things is our reality.

brownie and I have had some disagreements on 'speed'. From my perspective, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is lethal, unless you are moving so fast that you miss. The more you practice the right things, the faster you will go if you push yourself. Brownie thinks the opposite. Start as fast as you can and then slow it down until you are accurate. Either way works, as long as you work at it.

He's 100% accurate, no pun intended, about the need to 'present' with alacrity. Odds are as concealed we are all ready playing catch up.

I posted some time ago how I lowered the split times, by shooting out of control then backing off just enough to regain the accuracy. Those twitch muscles are developed very quickly the way I learned to shoot fast IMO. Twitch muscles are there, they just need to be pushed to speeds they aren't accustomed to.

As you mention, either works. When I was playing around for shorter split times, I found the following. When I could easily shoot 3 per second, that 4th per second came within an hour or two pushing past what those twitch muscles were accustomed to. When it was time to work toward 5 per second, it wasn't another 3-4 hours over a few session until those twitch muscles were worked at that speed. Then slow it down ever so slightly, to bring back accuracy and within a few more sessions, 5 per second were as easy as 3 per second.

Today, I'm probably back to 4 per second. I don't train anymore, I basically don't shoot any more but on the rare occasion my brother comes down from Denver, then we'll spend a day in the desert. I'm helping him with some of the skills students have seen who post here. He's just gotten into the carry guns/carrying game for SD.

 

[brownie]

I believe there is a fair amount of confusion regarding speed. Perhaps I can help out.

Slow is slow. Slow might be smooth, but it is still slow. It can be comparatively slow, but still slow.

Smooth can be slow. It can also be fast. It can be anywhere in between.

Fast is fast. It is never slow. It might be smooth, or it might not. It is always fast. Comparatively fast, perhaps, but fast nonetheless.

Hope this helps.

I never learned to shoot fast by shooting slow. Others may believe slow is smooth and smooth is fast, I've got no problem with their believing that's true.

I think it stems from the fact that if you're jerky in your draw trying to be fast, you're actually slower, can fumble a draw, lose the weapon [ I've seen guns thrown downrange where that person pushed past their normal comfort level ]. That's true to a point, I think it's valid to some degree for many people.

I'm not very concerned with smooth, I was always concerned with developing speed. IMO, one can't develop more speed than their body knows how to use presently without pushing for speed. Pushing for smooth will never get someone to what I consider fast, you're not pushing those twitch muscles past their present comfort level.

Lets look at another example of where speed may be used. Disarms. I know for a fact I can move my hand from at my side to a gun pointed at me in .17 seconds today, and haven't lost that speed over decades [ since 81 anyway ]. I probably started at .20.21 seconds to touch the gun. Hundreds of dry exercises per month for a few months after learning the disarm/s, pushing for more speed, I got to that .17 seconds. I developed those particular set twitch muscles quickly. No that .17 is any better at making a disarm over a .20/.21 time to touch the gun, but it gives me a slight margin of safety. Safety? yes, the average adult has a reaction time of something slightly over .25 seconds to visual or auditory or movement cues. Action beats reaction is absolutely true. BUT, if you had a very smooth move to the gun that was at .25-28 or more seconds, you could get shot trying to make the disarm/s.

Another example, heavens six with the sticks. I worked for at least an hour a day with the sticks only having the basics of several of the drills. I worked out of control with the double sticks for hours, and once knocked myself out with one of the sticks because the twitch muscles weren't developed yet to have that speed and control of the sticks. Within a month those muscles were developed and were perfectly capable of control with speed.

If we were to take 1.5 seconds as the base for being fast from concealed, the majority would not be considered fast [ no matter how smooth they were in drawing the gun ]. What would those who can draw and fire under that 1.5 second threshold be considered? Fast.

Now take the 1.5 second base and make it 1.2 seconds as fast. Fewer still would be considered fast. Those who could draw and fire under 1.2 seconds would be considered fast. You get the idea. I've had people proclaim they are fast on the draw with a 2 second draw to fire time. Fast is therefore a relative term. When someone challenged my statement that I was fast to first shot from the holster telling me I might not be fast as I thought I was if I'd not actually been on a timer. So I did the timer to see just how fast I was, and when the times were demonstrated on a video, the editor showing me in .00 seconds what the time to first shot was, that person exclaimed yes, I was fast. I didn't need a timer to tell me that, I needed a timer to prove to someone else I was fast. But again

Fast is a relative word. Fast for some is slow for someone else. There are less people who can draw and fire from concealed in under 1.2 seconds than otherwise who carry in this country. Some believe they are fast at 2 seconds, and they are, for them. They just haven't pushed past their comfort level to develop the twitch muscles further.

 

[brownie]

Developed by Chuck Taylor, this is one of the most difficult pistol courses in the world. Currently, only 12 people hold this rank. It is included here for your interest--this is not an official document.


Target and Scoring: The test is shot on Chuck Taylor's proprietary target: a camoflaged silhouette roughly the same dimensions as an IPSC target, with an inner torso zone (X ring) of 11 by 13 inches, and an ocular zone (Y ring) of 3 by 4 inches. Hits in the X or Y zones count 5 points; hits on the target outside these zones count 3 (major caliber), or 2 (minor caliber) points.


The Test: All weapon presentations are from the holster. The test must be shot in this order, in its entirety.


STANDARD EXERCISES: 2 shots on torso (a 13" x 11" scoring area); perform each once. Total of 80 pts.


1 meter (m), Speed Rock, 1.0 second (sec)


1 m, Step Back, 1.0 sec


3 m, 1.0 sec


7 m, 1.3 sec


10 m, 1.7 sec


15 m, 2.2 sec


25 m, 2.7 sec


50 m, 6.0 sec


SINGLES (Presentations): 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 25 pts.


7 m, 1.0 sec


PIVOTS and TURNS: 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 75 pts.


90 degree pivot to the right, 1.0 sec


90 degree pivot to the left, 1.0 sec


180 degree turn, 1.2 sec


MULTIPLE TARGETS: 1 shot on each as listed. All shot from 5 m. Total of 45 pts. Targets are 1 m apart center to center.


2 targets, 1.2 sec


3 targets, 1.5 sec


4 targets, 1.8 sec


HEAD SHOTS: 1 shot per command. Total of 45 pts.


5 m, 1.0 sec. Perform a total of 4 times.


7 m, 1.2 sec. Perform a total of 5 times.


AMBIDEXTROUS STANDARD: 1 shot on each target. Total of 30 pts. Time limit 6.0 sec. Perform once.


7 m; candidate draws, fires 1 round at each of 3 targets, speed loads, transfers gun to weak hand, then fires 1 more shot at each target weak hand unsupported.


HOSTAGE SITUATIONS: 1 shot on each. Perform each a total of 5 times. Shot from 7 m. Total of 50 pts. Time limit: 1.2 sec each.


Head shot on felon past left side of hostage's head. Perform a total of 5 times.


Head shot on felon past right side of hostages head. Perform a total of 5 times.


TARGETS AT ODD ANGLES: 60% obscured by cover. 1 shot each. Shot from 7 m. Perform each a total of five times. Total of 50 pts. Time Limit: 1.2 sec each.


Target looking around right side of cover.


Target looking around left side of cover.


Next is the weapon handling phase. No points are earned, only deducted.


SPEED LOADING; NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 1.5 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.


TACTICAL LOADING. NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 4.0 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.


MALFUNCTION CLEARANCE DRILLS. NO SHOOTING. CLEARANCE DRILLS ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times within time limits listed below. Possible total deduction of 75 pts from shooting score.


Position One (Failure to Fire): 1.0 sec


Position Two (Failure to Eject): 1.0 sec


Position Three (Feedway Stoppage): 4.0 sec


Qualification:


Possible total is 400 pts. You need 360 pts (90%) to pass. Penalties are assessed as follows:


5 pts are deducted from candidates score for each occurrence of the following offenses:


Premature start/"creeping"


Overtime shot. If caused by a malfunction and candidate properly clears it, no penalty is assessed.


Hit on hostage or object designated as cover.


Overtime speed load, tactical load or malfunction clearance.

 

[brownie]

As a comparison, here's the pistol qual course for air marshals.

https://www.gunlaws.com/pdf/Air%20Marshall%20Pistol%20Drill.pdf

I'm quite sure I couldn't pass Taylors test [ and many have tried ], and would have some amount of difficulty qualling on the air marshal course.

 

[Ronnie948]

FAST IS GOOD
HALF-FAST is bad. ( Say as 1 word)
Ronnie

 

[brownie]

I never learned to shoot fast by shooting slow. Others may believe slow is smooth and smooth is fast, I've got no problem with their believing that's true.

I think it stems from the fact that if you're jerky in your draw trying to be fast, you're actually slower, can fumble a draw, lose the weapon [ I've seen guns thrown downrange where that person pushed past their normal comfort level ]. That's true to a point, I think it's valid to some degree for many people.

I'm not very concerned with smooth, I was always concerned with developing speed. IMO, one can't develop more speed than their body knows how to use presently without pushing for speed. Pushing for smooth will never get someone to what I consider fast, you're not pushing those twitch muscles past their present comfort level.

Lets look at another example of where speed may be used. Disarms. I know for a fact I can move my hand from at my side to a gun pointed at me in .17 seconds today, and haven't lost that speed over decades [ since 81 anyway ]. I probably started at .20.21 seconds to touch the gun. Hundreds of dry exercises per month for a few months after learning the disarm/s, pushing for more speed, I got to that .17 seconds. I developed those particular set twitch muscles quickly. No that .17 is any better at making a disarm over a .20/.21 time to touch the gun, but it gives me a slight margin of safety. Safety? yes, the average adult has a reaction time of something slightly over .25 seconds to visual or auditory or movement cues. Action beats reaction is absolutely true. BUT, if you had a very smooth move to the gun that was at .25-28 or more seconds, you could get shot trying to make the disarm/s.

Another example, heavens six with the sticks. I worked for at least an hour a day with the sticks only having the basics of several of the drills. I worked out of control with the double sticks for hours, and once knocked myself out with one of the sticks because the twitch muscles weren't developed yet to have that speed and control of the sticks. Within a month those muscles were developed and were perfectly capable of control with speed.

If we were to take 1.5 seconds as the base for being fast from concealed, the majority would not be considered fast [ no matter how smooth they were in drawing the gun ]. What would those who can draw and fire under that 1.5 second threshold be considered? Fast.

Now take the 1.5 second base and make it 1.2 seconds as fast. Fewer still would be considered fast. Those who could draw and fire under 1.2 seconds would be considered fast. You get the idea. I've had people proclaim they are fast on the draw with a 2 second draw to fire time. Fast is therefore a relative term. When someone challenged my statement that I was fast to first shot from the holster telling me I might not be fast as I thought I was if I'd not actually been on a timer. So I did the timer to see just how fast I was, and when the times were demonstrated on a video, the editor showing me in .00 seconds what the time to first shot was, that person exclaimed yes, I was fast. I didn't need a timer to tell me that, I needed a timer to prove to someone else I was fast. But again

Fast is a relative word. Fast for some is slow for someone else. There are less people who can draw and fire from concealed in under 1.2 seconds than otherwise who carry in this country. Some believe they are fast at 2 seconds, and they are, for them. They just haven't pushed past their comfort level to develop the twitch muscles further.

I wanted to add this to the above thought process.

Jelly Bryce, the legendary FBI agent sharpshooter

Found this on the net searching for something else about Wild Bill Hickock a few years back and put it up on my forum back then JELLY BRYCE,THE FBI'S LEGENDARY SHARPSHOOTER November 12, 1945, by K. B. Chaffin On November 12, 1945, Life Magazine ran an unusual story. It was a photographic...

www.floridaconcealedcarry.com

Jelly Bryce had a .40 second draw stroke in a strong side belt holster, from under a sport coat. How to hell could that be humanly possible. But it is, and it's a fact humans can get that fast but only IF they spend an inordinate amount of time developing those particular twitch muscles like Bryce and Jordan did in front of a full length mirror. Hours upon hours upon hours of draw strokes, they became extremely fast, and never used a timer to "get there". When Bryce was timed with rudimentary electronic equipment of the day, he learned for the first time how fast he was.

"Bryce walked over to the car, around to the driver's door, and opened it. The man inside looked up, startled. He had some tools and it looked like he was in the process of trying to start the car without a key.

"What are you doing?" Bryce asked.

"Who are you?" the man snarled.

"A police officer."

Without another word the man drew a pistol from under his coat and tried to aim it at Bryce. Before he could fire Bryce drew and killed him. The man slid out of the car onto the cement, dead. "

Pretty fast

"One night in 1927 Bryce, alone on night patrol, saw two men in an alley trying to jimmy the back door of a furniture store. He swerved his patrol car into the mouth of the alley, skidding to a stop with his two front lights trained on the two men. He jumped from the car. The two men spun and both opened fire at the same instant.

Bryce killed them both instantly with just two shots. "

Pretty fast, and accurate

"Bryce had killed 3 men his first year, all of them attempting to fire first."

I'd say that's pretty damned fast

"Oklahoma City detectives learned that there were three known gangsters holed up at the Wren Hotel at 408 1/2 West Main in Oklahoma City. One was known to be Harvey Pugh, former companion of murderer and cop killer Clyde Barrow. Pugh himself was wanted for the murder of a police officer in McPherson, Kansas. Bryce and two other detectives were dispatched to arrest Pugh and question the other two men.

They arrived at the hotel at around 8 a.m. At the front desk was an elderly woman, Nora Bingaman, whose daughter owned the hotel. The officers asked to see the owner, Mrs Merle Bolen, 28 years old. Mrs. Bingaman agreed to take them to her daughter's room.

They followed the old lady up the dark stairs and down a dingy hallway to her daughter's room. The old lady knocked perfunctorily and opened the door. But before the detectives could enter the old lady looked startled and tried to step back and pull the door closed again.

Bryce jammed his foot in the door. "I told you we're police officers," he growled and shoved the door open. He stepped into the room.

Inside the room, lounged on the bed in skimpy pajamas, lay Mrs. Merle Bolen, the owner of the hotel, and J. Ray O'Donnell. O'Donnell was one of the gangsters the detectives had come to question. He was holding two automatic pistols.

Bryce's .38 was still holstered on his hip under his coat. Without saying a word O'Donnell raised the pistols at Bryce to fire point blank. A single motion blurred with speed, Bryce drew and killed him before he could pull the trigger. Bryce's first shot entered O'Donnell's chin followed by four that struck him in the head area, the fifth going into the mattress of the bed. Screaming, the woman leaped to safety near a wash stand in the corner.

Bryce later said, "When I looked into the room there he was, up on his elbows with a gun in both hands, aimed right at me. He was lying on the near side, and the woman was on the other side of him. I jumped to one side, out of the line of fire, grabbed my gun and tore him up."

"It was also in Oklahoma City that Bryce perfected his quick draw, practicing facing a full-length mirror at police headquarters, sometimes for as much as 8 hours at a time."

That's serious development of twitch muscles.

"So, just how good were Bryce's eyes? An optometrist asked about it said, "It's impossible to measure beyond 20/10. It would be more than just the eyes, though; it would be the eye-hand coordination which would have to be almost unbelievable."

Eye-hand coordination, highly developed twitch muscles. Nothing more to it, in many endeavors we enjoy.

 

[brownie]

Another fast shooter was Ed MCGivern, I have his book called fast and fancy revolver shooting. He was faster than Bryce. He worked with law enforcement later in his career with firearms.

Just an fyi in case someone was interested in reading about what was possible with revolvers

 

[mike1956]

Another fast shooter was Ed MCGivern, I have his book called fast and fancy revolver shooting. He was faster than Bryce. He worked with law enforcement later in his career with firearms.

Just an fyi in case someone was interested in reading about what was possible with revolvers

A few years back, Marvel Comics creator Stan Lee hosted a show entitled "Stan Lee's Superhumans" on the History Channel. One of the people he featured was Bob Munden who, at the time of filming still walked in the land of the living. Had Jelly Bryce or Ed McGivern still walked there, they could have as easily been featured. These guys were indeed "superhuman"--reflexes, reaction times, hand-eye coordination and dedication all came together to give them the incredible skills that they demonstrated. Of all those qualities they developed, I'm thinking that one-in-a-million reaction times played heavily into their abilities.

I've mentioned having trained under Scott Jedlinski, who founded and operates Modern Samurai Project along with his wife Bev. He demo's everything he teaches, and even some stuff he doesn't directly teach. His speed and accuracy are impressive. In a demo I watched in person, he was chasing (and surpassed) his own best time on a timed drill that starts out aimed at the first of several targets. The shot timer sounds, and he already has the first target. His time from the beginning of the beep to first shot was .07 seconds. My best time similarly gauged is .13, which is fast. Normal reaction time is somewhere in the .2 realm. Fast reaction times are in the .1's. .07 puts a guy well out in front of the rest of the pack before ever touching the gun.

 

[brownie]

A few years back, Marvel Comics creator Stan Lee hosted a show entitled "Stan Lee's Superhumans" on the History Channel. One of the people he featured was Bob Munden who, at the time of filming still walked in the land of the living. Had Jelly Bryce or Ed McGivern still walked there, they could have as easily been featured. These guys were indeed "superhuman"--reflexes, reaction times, hand-eye coordination and dedication all came together to give them the incredible skills that they demonstrated. Of all those qualities they developed, I'm thinking that one-in-a-million reaction times played heavily into their abilities.

I've mentioned having trained under Scott Jedlinski, who founded and operates Modern Samurai Project along with his wife Bev. He demo's everything he teaches, and even some stuff he doesn't directly teach. His speed and accuracy are impressive. In a demo I watched in person, he was chasing (and surpassed) his own best time on a timed drill that starts out aimed at the first of several targets. The shot timer sounds, and he already has the first target. His time from the beginning of the beep to first shot was .07 seconds. My best time similarly gauged is .13, which is fast. Normal reaction time is somewhere in the .2 realm. Fast reaction times are in the .1's. .07 puts a guy well out in front of the rest of the pack before ever touching the gun.

I spoke with Munden twice back in 2000 and 2001 about attending his week long instructional course using six shooters. Figured I could pick up some tips on the speed front. Alas, he required you purchase a firearm maker of his choosing, send him the gun and he'd work his comp magic on it for the course.

Not including air fare and room/food, it was a 5K proposition. I decided I didn't need to spend that kind of money to perhaps gain a few thousandths off draw speed.