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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm just wondering whether speed from concealment is something that is important to members here. I seldom see it discussed.

Is speed a part of your practice/training routine?

If so, is a shot timer a part of that routine?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Post 5 are my thoughts on draw speed from 2009

And this one from 2016


I've used a shot timer, not for training, but to establish what those decades of training brought to the plate relative speed of presentation. I saw no need for a timer for training.

Be all you can be over a period of intense training and multiples of rds downrange, then use a timer to see what all the practice has produced. Not happy with the time, practice more, much more.

Bryce and Jordan would stand in front of a full length mirror for hours practicing their draw, both from open and concealed carry. If ya don't put in the time, you're mediocre at best. That's fine if you're one who believes mediocre is perfectly fine. Mediocre is perfectly acceptable for many. We see that on every gun board.
All great stuff. I'm glad to be a part of your choir.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Another thought regarding Brownie's post.

The shot timer has indeed become an integral part of my training, not only as a measure of my speed, but also as an indicator of the window I'm striving to operate within. My current goal is a reliable A-zone hit from concealment in less than one second. Both during dry and live fire sessions, I'll run the shot timer set with a one-second par time. I've been able to break that one second down into three distinct actions, with a decent idea of where I need to be when I hear the timer. If my cover garment hasn't been cleared and my draw grip achieved by the end of the .3 second beep, I know that I'm behind the curve and needing to make up some time on step two.

It's essentially the same thing for the 25-yard A-zone shot, except I have the extra time for step three, painting the target with the dot and pulling the trigger. The timer not only measures my time, it also helps me with muscle memory and efficiency throughout the process.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.
I'll take all that to mean that speed and accuracy aren't what you train and practice for. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well Ronnie, I'm not sure if you ever worked the streets, ever had a DGU event in the civilian world or not. I can state emphatically that had I not practiced to a fast draw stroke, I'd not have survived at least two events [ and I've never shot myself in the leg in practice nor in the wild.

Speed of presentation, hundreds of students through the pistol course where each was forced to draw fast and make hits. NOT one of those students shot themselves in the leg drawing with speed. Most had never tried to be as fast as they were in the courses, so the muscle memory wasn't there when they arrived, but two days later that muscle memory was well developed through hundreds of draw strokes.

People who poo poo a fast draw stroke are usually the ones who never trained to have that talent. It's nothing more than developing one's twitch muscles and proprioception. Doesn't take a lifetime to develop said speed of presentation. Hundreds of students would tell you that's absolutely true, they were part and parcel to being able, in just two days, to have said fast draw stroke.

I can tell you this though, an oh sheet moment doesn't require one to remain calm.. How do we know that? In the face of life and death events, our heart rates elevate to over 100bpm. There are few will train to keep that heart rate below 80 when startled.. I know I haven't trained for that, but I do know this-- an elevated heart rate doesn't mean one can't perform admirably like defending themselves out of hand.

There is NO calm when taking incoming, so one learns to command their functions while enjoying that elevated heart rate. You either have no experience on the street in DGU's or you've just become too cynical in your old age to understand the dynamics people work through "on the fly". Those who register elevated heart bpm's AND have the training/skills do a whole lot better than those who haven't trained for the fight [ either simulated stress like FoF or live fire exercises.

Now if you're a mediocre shooter at best, have no formal training in surviving DGU's, then perhaps when startled, you'll panic and excede your present abilities [ through a lack of prior training ]. But that's not the story with well trained people who've let their body develop their twitch muscles and proprioception under duress. Examples would be Bryce, Jordan, Col. Askins, Fairbairn/Sykes, Applegate.

Far too many people who carry flat out suck when it comes to being fast in their responses, strictly due to lack of training and developing those proprioceptors. These are the types that don't believe all that prior training is all that beneficial. You seem to fall into this category of gun carrier. It's okay to be mediocre, it's okay to not want to spend the time and money it takes to develop speed.

"thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg."

I'm not sure how much thinking goes into putting lead on threat when the first shot comes at 1 second or less. The thinking, that should take place in training environs, not on the street when it's for all the marbles [ and that's where the majority of shooters are in this country ]
Yours wasn't the first (or even the tenth) "advanced" handgun class I took. It was and remains the farthest I've traveled to attend, but not the first. You were, however the first instructor who emphasized and taught speed of presentation as a core fundamental of the class. It literally changed me in my approach to and goals to strive for in my role as an armed citizen.

I've taken a number of even more "advanced" classes since our time together in Florida. Until my very last one, with Modern Samurai Project, yours was also the last class I attended where speed and accuracy were the goals. Three guys--you, David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts and Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai project are the only instructors whose presentations and approaches changed my shooting philosophy and skills at their very core. Sure, I've learned stuff from other instructors, but you guys showed me what is important, and how to achieve it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Few practice for speed and accuracy. I'll make the distinction here that accuracy in my mind means combat accuracy. Col. Askins was a world class bullseye shooter across the US. Slow fire with super accuracy were the order of the day. ya know what? Askins was also a border agent who practiced speed from the holster, and had upwards of 27 DGU's along the border. He had two national pistol shooting awards for bullseye shooting. But he understood slow extreme accurate shots had NO place on the border dealing with hombre's trying to kill him.

I can't count how many people I've heard tell others they are great shots because they can put 5-6 rounds inside a quarter at 5 yrds [ pick the numbers you get the idea ]. They do so taking their time for each shot, as if taking the time to make ultra precision shots will stand them well when the sheet hits the fan on the streets. They are ill prepared, and mostly don't know what they don't know.
Dunning Kruger is in effect with most, for sure. For many, what they are good at is good enough. When test time rolls around, they aren't even as good at that as they thought they were.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Therein is the problem with most gun carriers, they think drilling tiny little groups makes them a pistolero of magnitude on the street when the balloon goes up. They are ill prepared for the fight, because they haven't trained for the fight.

I was one of those people myself once upon a time. But working the streets, I knew I needed more skills than drilling tiny little groups which I do handily on command. Had I not attended SIONICS where I learned to survive DGU's [ learning to stay alive with a handgun ] I'd have been planted in the ground starting somewhere in the early 80's.

Speed of presentation kept me above ground for 28 years working the streets and "events" I was asked to participate in OCONUS during the 80's.
Sionics was much like Vietnam, I'm thinking. Unless you were there...
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I did not say to not train and practice, I have been in a few very bad situations in Nam and a few here in America and I am still here. My first time in Nam, I was pretty well shaking and thank God a Sargent was there and saved me and my person I was driving for. He took me aside later and explained the stay calm to me. The few events after was when I learned best how to defend myself and I never ever forgot his advice.
I did practice and train my brain. (((A LOT)))
I still have a knife scar in my side from an event in Hunts Point New York back in 1979. I stayed very calm and my North American arms saved the day.
I also at one time in Miami when going into a warehouse late at night seen a big guy have a police officer up against a wall trying to get the officers gum. I got out of my truck and put my shotgun against the attackers head. The guy was cuffed and the cop told me to go so I would not be stuck with all the red tape crap.

And, Brownie, You of all people should know how getting all excited and not thinking straight is "NOT" the way to go in a situation.
PRACTICE - PRACTICE & more PRACTICE is what is needed, But you know as well as I do that not all gun owners will take the time to learn anything about how to react.
Ronnie
Sorry, I didn't realize that you're an old guy when I was making my snarky retorts.

Do you still train/practice?
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
we perceive things is our reality.

brownie and I have had some disagreements on 'speed'. From my perspective, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is lethal, unless you are moving so fast that you miss. The more you practice the right things, the faster you will go if you push yourself. Brownie thinks the opposite. Start as fast as you can and then slow it down until you are accurate. Either way works, as long as you work at it.

He's 100% accurate, no pun intended, about the need to 'present' with alacrity. Odds are as concealed we are all ready playing catch up.
I believe there is a fair amount of confusion regarding speed. Perhaps I can help out.

Slow is slow. Slow might be smooth, but it is still slow. It can be comparatively slow, but still slow.

Smooth can be slow. It can also be fast. It can be anywhere in between.

Fast is fast. It is never slow. It might be smooth, or it might not. It is always fast. Comparatively fast, perhaps, but fast nonetheless.

Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Another fast shooter was Ed MCGivern, I have his book called fast and fancy revolver shooting. He was faster than Bryce. He worked with law enforcement later in his career with firearms.

Just an fyi in case someone was interested in reading about what was possible with revolvers
A few years back, Marvel Comics creator Stan Lee hosted a show entitled "Stan Lee's Superhumans" on the History Channel. One of the people he featured was Bob Munden who, at the time of filming still walked in the land of the living. Had Jelly Bryce or Ed McGivern still walked there, they could have as easily been featured. These guys were indeed "superhuman"--reflexes, reaction times, hand-eye coordination and dedication all came together to give them the incredible skills that they demonstrated. Of all those qualities they developed, I'm thinking that one-in-a-million reaction times played heavily into their abilities.

I've mentioned having trained under Scott Jedlinski, who founded and operates Modern Samurai Project along with his wife Bev. He demo's everything he teaches, and even some stuff he doesn't directly teach. His speed and accuracy are impressive. In a demo I watched in person, he was chasing (and surpassed) his own best time on a timed drill that starts out aimed at the first of several targets. The shot timer sounds, and he already has the first target. His time from the beginning of the beep to first shot was .07 seconds. My best time similarly gauged is .13, which is fast. Normal reaction time is somewhere in the .2 realm. Fast reaction times are in the .1's. .07 puts a guy well out in front of the rest of the pack before ever touching the gun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I spoke with Munden twice back in 2000 and 2001 about attending his week long instructional course using six shooters. Figured I could pick up some tips on the speed front. Alas, he required you purchase a firearm maker of his choosing, send him the gun and he'd work his comp magic on it for the course.

Not including air fare and room/food, it was a 5K proposition. I decided I didn't need to spend that kind of money to perhaps gain a few thousandths off draw speed.
I know he was building six shooters for aspirants at one time, with a sound rationale. The beatings such guns take will make short work of factory parts and springs.

This segment is what inspired me to pursue point-shooting skills, not to be like Bob Munden, but to be a point-shooting Mike1956. Eventually, that brought me around to Brownie's training.

At the end of the video, he draws, cocks his SA pistol, fires, cocks and fires again in under 1/10 of a second while making precision hits.

 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Rushing to hit a target is the fastest way to miss it.

I'm going to use brownie as an example. He is wicked fast and shoots accurately. He didn't strike me as the flinching type.

It's that combination that allows 'successful' gun usage against armed targets. Add some 'luck' and 'common sense' and one can grow old.

Speed alone isn't poo. How one attains that 'combination' is up for debate.
I'm missing what is being argued here. Speed and accuracy are the results of efficient, effective technique. Learn the technique, practice it, and perfect it and voila, you get to sit with Brownie at the grown-up table.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Are you a student of history or bad movies? Acolytes who start to set rules for whom their master is allowed to associate with tend to meet bad ends.
I was tracking right up to that point, at which point you totally lost me. Could you explain more specifically?
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I started slow, for 10 years anyway. In that time, I'd not shot in matches, just lazily playing at the range shooting tiny little groups like most people.

Then I was taught how to stay alive with a handgun in 81. The rules changed that week for me. No more slow lazy days at the range plinking tiny little groups as I was working the streets and would be working with that group of people from time to time overseas in some nasty biz.

From that moment I got back from the compound, it was train to speed of draw to hits, speed of split times. So I started that road not as a novice, but shooting in a manner that would not afford me much life expectancy in the games I was playing and would be playing in the future.

Built the speed of draw just from practicing draw strokes over some time. Then, not being happy with the slower than I wanted progress of speed trying to concentrate on accuracy [ at least combat accuracy ], having discovered how twitch muscles are developed, I would run the gun out of control. I was only interested in trigger speed [ the training of the trigger finger to move faster for more shots per second ]. Isolating the training of the trigger finger, isolated the draw stroke and then the two came together when paired in a sequence of draw and fire practice.

I wouldn't recommend nor condone anyone that's a novice at handgun skills to instantly trying to shoot out of control to gain trigger speed anymore than I'd recommend or condone a new/novice shooter start yanking the gun out of the holster in an effort to be fast. Both would be unsafe for a novice, not well heeled in running a gun to begin with.

Lets say for the first 10 years, I advanced to a 6th grade level, after the boys showed me some real skills for the streets, lets say I went from 6th to 12th grade in the next year. And within two more years, I'd graduated college with a masters degree.

So, 10 years to get out of grade school, just 1 year to 12th and 2 more to a masters degree. There's a learning curve, but the more you have as a base, the faster you find can move through the grades till you're an accomplished SD pistol shooter with numerous skills behind you.
I too started out and stayed slow on the draw from concealment for several years. I adhered to the second-and-a-half "standard" being adequate during that time. My speed draw consisted of a haphazard draw to a crappy grip to a frantic trigger yank. I could hit the 2/3 silhouette most of the time at seven yards, the standard of the school I frequently attended.

Eventually, I decided I needed to up my game a bit, and took your class in Florida. Coming out of the holster at point-shooting distances became fast and combat accurate. Adding to that, I adopted a pocket carry set-up to my repertoire. That was when too fast, too hard, out of control ceased to be an option. I got so fast that the steps were becoming blurred, and I felt that any faster would be hazardous and unsafe. I hit the .5 second range, and left it at that.

I moved from strong side to appendix carry out of necessity after some weight loss. The ease of draw allowed me to up my draw times from concealment to the 1.3-1.4-second range. Still frenetic and haphazard, but smoother (see what I did there?) than my work from strong side carry. I could accomplish those times with the dot, but it was more of a point shoulder than pick up the dot method of aim.

A few things happened, and I realized that I was very unsatisfied with my times and results. I sought out a competent red dot instructor after a few "red dot workshops" that were pretty much pointless, and received instruction very similar to what you do with point shooting--indexing, grip, draw, presentation, sight picture, etc, and have been acquiring the skills ever since. The thing about AIWB vs the pocket carry experience is that I've been able to remain safe as I press the speed. My finger never reaches the trigger before it's time (countless reps creating the muscle memory), and I can push hard and fast.

During this process, I've learned techniques that will not work for me (mashing a fingernail on the belt buckle, for instance), while incorporating and cleaning up what I was taught in the class. The work continues, improvement and efficiency continue, and my dedication to and enthusiasm toward the process remain high.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 · (Edited)
You are at that. And an excellent way to keep up on some of the skills. Bladnbullet does or at least used to do the same thing to stay sharp on the skill. Not gaming it, running it like it was the street. He takes his penalties when he thinks he's got a better real world solution.
I often do the same thing in some of the gun classes I take (not from anyone here). Instructor/school dogma and doctrine sometimes lack effective real world application.

I put two to the orbital sockets of a hostage-taker in a class earlier this year, and the clip-board carrying assistant instructor solemnly announced that I had failed that phase of the scenario because you're only supposed to fire one round on the hostage target. I replied that since my first round didn't end the situation, I went ahead and fired again in an effort to solve the problem. If the first round doesn't solve the problem, I still have the problem.

Forward aggressive isosceles is another one. It simply doesn't serve me as effectively as other approaches, so I reject it, to the chagrin of instructors who preach its supposed attributes.

That whole check 360 while standing with the gun in front of you is another one. A great way to get punched in the face, or worse in the real deal.

Solve the problem, take the penalty.
 
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