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Post 5 are my thoughts on draw speed from 2009

And this one from 2016


I've used a shot timer, not for training, but to establish what those decades of training brought to the plate relative speed of presentation. I saw no need for a timer for training.

Be all you can be over a period of intense training and multiples of rds downrange, then use a timer to see what all the practice has produced. Not happy with the time, practice more, much more.

Bryce and Jordan would stand in front of a full length mirror for hours practicing their draw, both from open and concealed carry. If ya don't put in the time, you're mediocre at best. That's fine if you're one who believes mediocre is perfectly fine. Mediocre is perfectly acceptable for many. We see that on every gun board.
 

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My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.
Well Ronnie, I'm not sure if you ever worked the streets, ever had a DGU event in the civilian world or not. I can state emphatically that had I not practiced to a fast draw stroke, I'd not have survived at least two events [ and I've never shot myself in the leg in practice nor in the wild.

Speed of presentation, hundreds of students through the pistol course where each was forced to draw fast and make hits. NOT one of those students shot themselves in the leg drawing with speed. Most had never tried to be as fast as they were in the courses, so the muscle memory wasn't there when they arrived, but two days later that muscle memory was well developed through hundreds of draw strokes.

People who poo poo a fast draw stroke are usually the ones who never trained to have that talent. It's nothing more than developing one's twitch muscles and proprioception. Doesn't take a lifetime to develop said speed of presentation. Hundreds of students would tell you that's absolutely true, they were part and parcel to being able, in just two days, to have said fast draw stroke.

I can tell you this though, an oh sheet moment doesn't require one to remain calm.. How do we know that? In the face of life and death events, our heart rates elevate to over 100bpm. There are few will train to keep that heart rate below 80 when startled.. I know I haven't trained for that, but I do know this-- an elevated heart rate doesn't mean one can't perform admirably like defending themselves out of hand.

There is NO calm when taking incoming, so one learns to command their functions while enjoying that elevated heart rate. You either have no experience on the street in DGU's or you've just become too cynical in your old age to understand the dynamics people work through "on the fly". Those who register elevated heart bpm's AND have the training/skills do a whole lot better than those who haven't trained for the fight [ either simulated stress like FoF or live fire exercises.

Now if you're a mediocre shooter at best, have no formal training in surviving DGU's, then perhaps when startled, you'll panic and excede your present abilities [ through a lack of prior training ]. But that's not the story with well trained people who've let their body develop their twitch muscles and proprioception under duress. Examples would be Bryce, Jordan, Col. Askins, Fairbairn/Sykes, Applegate.

Far too many people who carry flat out suck when it comes to being fast in their responses, strictly due to lack of training and developing those proprioceptors. These are the types that don't believe all that prior training is all that beneficial. You seem to fall into this category of gun carrier. It's okay to be mediocre, it's okay to not want to spend the time and money it takes to develop speed.

"thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg."

I'm not sure how much thinking goes into putting lead on threat when the first shot comes at 1 second or less. The thinking, that should take place in training environs, not on the street when it's for all the marbles [ and that's where the majority of shooters are in this country ]
 

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I'll take all that to mean that speed and accuracy aren't what you train and practice for. Thanks!
Few practice for speed and accuracy. I'll make the distinction here that accuracy in my mind means combat accuracy. Col. Askins was a world class bullseye shooter across the US. Slow fire with super accuracy were the order of the day. ya know what? Askins was also a border agent who practiced speed from the holster, and had upwards of 27 DGU's along the border. He had two national pistol shooting awards for bullseye shooting. But he understood slow extreme accurate shots had NO place on the border dealing with hombre's trying to kill him.

I can't count how many people I've heard tell others they are great shots because they can put 5-6 rounds inside a quarter at 5 yrds [ pick the numbers you get the idea ]. They do so taking their time for each shot, as if taking the time to make ultra precision shots will stand them well when the sheet hits the fan on the streets. They are ill prepared, and mostly don't know what they don't know.
 

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Dunning Kruger is in effect with most, for sure. For many, what they are good at is good enough. When test time rolls around, they aren't even as good at that as they thought they were.
Therein is the problem with most gun carriers, they think drilling tiny little groups makes them a pistolero of magnitude on the street when the balloon goes up. They are ill prepared for the fight, because they haven't trained for the fight.

I was one of those people myself once upon a time. But working the streets, I knew I needed more skills than drilling tiny little groups which I do handily on command. Had I not attended SIONICS where I learned to survive DGU's [ learning to stay alive with a handgun ] I'd have been planted in the ground starting somewhere in the early 80's.

Speed of presentation kept me above ground for 28 years working the streets and "events" I was asked to participate in OCONUS during the 80's.

I'm older and slower today than I used to be 40 years ago. Slower for me is likely still giving me an advantage over the majority of shooters out there. Just 3 years ago, I had a Delta operator [ out of the service for just a few years and roughly 30 years of age ] who didn't think I could make him faster at hits on threat. He was willing to see what I could do for him though, based on a US Ranger telling him he's learn to be faster to first shot on threat.

I was in my mid 60's at the time. I had him stand next to me to my left so I could peripherally see his hand move to the gun on his belt, that would be my signal to draw and fire. Remember now, he's former Delta, all they do is shoot houses and missions. When his hand moved to the gun, I put two into my target before he got a shot off.

Dumbfounded that someone twice his age could make him look like a 3rd grader, he smiled at me and said "I'm all ears sir". He was enlightened all day in several skills. I remember him working the QK hip one shot on each of two threats. His speed was good, but I had to tell him to stop dogging it and shoot faster. He said he couldn't shoot any faster, then within the next 5 minutes being pushed, he saw he was faster. And he didn't shoot his leg all day either

The mind is the limiting factor. ;)
 

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Sionics was much like Vietnam, I'm thinking. Unless you were there...
I was there. Didn't learn to stay alive with a handgun until SIONICS however.
 

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I did not say to not train and practice, I have been in a few very bad situations in Nam and a few here in America and I am still here. My first time in Nam, I was pretty well shaking and thank God a Sargent was there and saved me and my person I was driving for. He took me aside later and explained the stay calm to me. The few events after was when I learned best how to defend myself and I never ever forgot his advice.
I did practice and train my brain. (((A LOT)))
I still have a knife scar in my side from an event in Hunts Point New York back in 1979. I stayed very calm and my North American arms saved the day.
I also at one time in Miami when going into a warehouse late at night seen a big guy have a police officer up against a wall trying to get the officers gum. I got out of my truck and put my shotgun against the attackers head. The guy was cuffed and the cop told me to go so I would not be stuck with all the red tape crap.

And, Brownie, You of all people should know how getting all excited and not thinking straight is "NOT" the way to go in a situation.
PRACTICE - PRACTICE & more PRACTICE is what is needed, But you know as well as I do that not all gun owners will take the time to learn anything about how to react.
Ronnie
With speed and combat accuracy. The more of both, the better.
 

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I wasn't at either place, which is why I'm more a listener when guys who were are speaking to their experiences.
Ronnie relates his experiences in the RVN. I didn't carry a pistol in combat there, I was part of a team at all times. On the streets, I carry a pistol exclusively, and I'm mostly going to be alone to solve the problem with no assistance from team members.

Two different worlds to live or die in IMO. What being in a combat zone did do was to innoculate you to the stress of battles/incoming. The more you experienced that, the better prepared you were to get to fighting effectively.

I was a slow to draw, slow to shoot, sights user making tiny little groups for just 10 years before being shown how to stay alive with a handgun in 81. That was a good decision attending that counter terr course, I'd only been working the streets for 4 years at that time. In the following years, the work became absolutely dangerous to my health, and that training in 81 stood me well carrying a handgun [ or two ] on the streets chasing hardened criminals assoc. with LCN members.
 

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You were gifted at birth with the speed of a mongoose boss. One thing I talked to my grandson about when he started martial arts and he tried sparing with me, I'm not fast. I have trained reflexes so it might make me look fast.

You sir, have both.
I wasn't so much gifted naturally, my eye/hand coordination started at the tender age of 9. My father would take me to the back yard after dinner every night and throw fast balls [ he had an arm on him and could certainly reach 85, maybe up to 90mph ] at me. Right at me, at my head, at my feet for an hour every night. He'd mix that up with throwing the ball out of sight, and I had to spot it and move to catch it, he didn't make it easy. He had bought me a professional baseball glove that was way too big for me, but I learned to control it in short order. He'd have me bat against fast balls too, until by the age of 10, I could hit whatever he threw. He also taught me how to throw a curve ball about 10 and made me throw for hours every month [ just in 4th grade as it were ].

That eye/hand coordination developed into my being pretty fast on the reflexes, so when I played little league/baberuth/HS baseball I had that large scooping glove compared to the other kids when playing first base. I pitched and kids couldn't hit the curve balls I'd throw. My batting average was always over 350, the speed with which the kids pitched was like playing slow pitch softball.

I didn't recognize what talents he'd given me in those formative years until years later. He gave me an edge against kids I'd play against, the coaches all saw it on the field. I wasn't some clumsy kid running around trying to catch a ball, hit a ball, etc.
 

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we perceive things is our reality.

brownie and I have had some disagreements on 'speed'. From my perspective, slow is smooth, smooth is fast, fast is lethal, unless you are moving so fast that you miss. The more you practice the right things, the faster you will go if you push yourself. Brownie thinks the opposite. Start as fast as you can and then slow it down until you are accurate. Either way works, as long as you work at it.

He's 100% accurate, no pun intended, about the need to 'present' with alacrity. Odds are as concealed we are all ready playing catch up.
I posted some time ago how I lowered the split times, by shooting out of control then backing off just enough to regain the accuracy. Those twitch muscles are developed very quickly the way I learned to shoot fast IMO. Twitch muscles are there, they just need to be pushed to speeds they aren't accustomed to.

As you mention, either works. When I was playing around for shorter split times, I found the following. When I could easily shoot 3 per second, that 4th per second came within an hour or two pushing past what those twitch muscles were accustomed to. When it was time to work toward 5 per second, it wasn't another 3-4 hours over a few session until those twitch muscles were worked at that speed. Then slow it down ever so slightly, to bring back accuracy and within a few more sessions, 5 per second were as easy as 3 per second.

Today, I'm probably back to 4 per second. I don't train anymore, I basically don't shoot any more but on the rare occasion my brother comes down from Denver, then we'll spend a day in the desert. I'm helping him with some of the skills students have seen who post here. He's just gotten into the carry guns/carrying game for SD.
 

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I believe there is a fair amount of confusion regarding speed. Perhaps I can help out.

Slow is slow. Slow might be smooth, but it is still slow. It can be comparatively slow, but still slow.

Smooth can be slow. It can also be fast. It can be anywhere in between.

Fast is fast. It is never slow. It might be smooth, or it might not. It is always fast. Comparatively fast, perhaps, but fast nonetheless.

Hope this helps.
I never learned to shoot fast by shooting slow. Others may believe slow is smooth and smooth is fast, I've got no problem with their believing that's true.

I think it stems from the fact that if you're jerky in your draw trying to be fast, you're actually slower, can fumble a draw, lose the weapon [ I've seen guns thrown downrange where that person pushed past their normal comfort level ]. That's true to a point, I think it's valid to some degree for many people.

I'm not very concerned with smooth, I was always concerned with developing speed. IMO, one can't develop more speed than their body knows how to use presently without pushing for speed. Pushing for smooth will never get someone to what I consider fast, you're not pushing those twitch muscles past their present comfort level.

Lets look at another example of where speed may be used. Disarms. I know for a fact I can move my hand from at my side to a gun pointed at me in .17 seconds today, and haven't lost that speed over decades [ since 81 anyway ]. I probably started at .20.21 seconds to touch the gun. Hundreds of dry exercises per month for a few months after learning the disarm/s, pushing for more speed, I got to that .17 seconds. I developed those particular set twitch muscles quickly. No that .17 is any better at making a disarm over a .20/.21 time to touch the gun, but it gives me a slight margin of safety. Safety? yes, the average adult has a reaction time of something slightly over .25 seconds to visual or auditory or movement cues. Action beats reaction is absolutely true. BUT, if you had a very smooth move to the gun that was at .25-28 or more seconds, you could get shot trying to make the disarm/s.

Another example, heavens six with the sticks. I worked for at least an hour a day with the sticks only having the basics of several of the drills. I worked out of control with the double sticks for hours, and once knocked myself out with one of the sticks because the twitch muscles weren't developed yet to have that speed and control of the sticks. Within a month those muscles were developed and were perfectly capable of control with speed.

If we were to take 1.5 seconds as the base for being fast from concealed, the majority would not be considered fast [ no matter how smooth they were in drawing the gun ]. What would those who can draw and fire under that 1.5 second threshold be considered? Fast.

Now take the 1.5 second base and make it 1.2 seconds as fast. Fewer still would be considered fast. Those who could draw and fire under 1.2 seconds would be considered fast. You get the idea. I've had people proclaim they are fast on the draw with a 2 second draw to fire time. Fast is therefore a relative term. When someone challenged my statement that I was fast to first shot from the holster telling me I might not be fast as I thought I was if I'd not actually been on a timer. So I did the timer to see just how fast I was, and when the times were demonstrated on a video, the editor showing me in .00 seconds what the time to first shot was, that person exclaimed yes, I was fast. I didn't need a timer to tell me that, I needed a timer to prove to someone else I was fast. But again

Fast is a relative word. Fast for some is slow for someone else. There are less people who can draw and fire from concealed in under 1.2 seconds than otherwise who carry in this country. Some believe they are fast at 2 seconds, and they are, for them. They just haven't pushed past their comfort level to develop the twitch muscles further.
 

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Developed by Chuck Taylor, this is one of the most difficult pistol courses in the world. Currently, only 12 people hold this rank. It is included here for your interest--this is not an official document.


Target and Scoring: The test is shot on Chuck Taylor's proprietary target: a camoflaged silhouette roughly the same dimensions as an IPSC target, with an inner torso zone (X ring) of 11 by 13 inches, and an ocular zone (Y ring) of 3 by 4 inches. Hits in the X or Y zones count 5 points; hits on the target outside these zones count 3 (major caliber), or 2 (minor caliber) points.


The Test: All weapon presentations are from the holster. The test must be shot in this order, in its entirety.


STANDARD EXERCISES: 2 shots on torso (a 13" x 11" scoring area); perform each once. Total of 80 pts.


1 meter (m), Speed Rock, 1.0 second (sec)


1 m, Step Back, 1.0 sec


3 m, 1.0 sec


7 m, 1.3 sec


10 m, 1.7 sec


15 m, 2.2 sec


25 m, 2.7 sec


50 m, 6.0 sec


SINGLES (Presentations): 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 25 pts.


7 m, 1.0 sec


PIVOTS and TURNS: 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 75 pts.


90 degree pivot to the right, 1.0 sec


90 degree pivot to the left, 1.0 sec


180 degree turn, 1.2 sec


MULTIPLE TARGETS: 1 shot on each as listed. All shot from 5 m. Total of 45 pts. Targets are 1 m apart center to center.


2 targets, 1.2 sec


3 targets, 1.5 sec


4 targets, 1.8 sec


HEAD SHOTS: 1 shot per command. Total of 45 pts.


5 m, 1.0 sec. Perform a total of 4 times.


7 m, 1.2 sec. Perform a total of 5 times.


AMBIDEXTROUS STANDARD: 1 shot on each target. Total of 30 pts. Time limit 6.0 sec. Perform once.


7 m; candidate draws, fires 1 round at each of 3 targets, speed loads, transfers gun to weak hand, then fires 1 more shot at each target weak hand unsupported.


HOSTAGE SITUATIONS: 1 shot on each. Perform each a total of 5 times. Shot from 7 m. Total of 50 pts. Time limit: 1.2 sec each.


Head shot on felon past left side of hostage's head. Perform a total of 5 times.


Head shot on felon past right side of hostages head. Perform a total of 5 times.


TARGETS AT ODD ANGLES: 60% obscured by cover. 1 shot each. Shot from 7 m. Perform each a total of five times. Total of 50 pts. Time Limit: 1.2 sec each.


Target looking around right side of cover.


Target looking around left side of cover.


Next is the weapon handling phase. No points are earned, only deducted.


SPEED LOADING; NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 1.5 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.


TACTICAL LOADING. NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 4.0 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.


MALFUNCTION CLEARANCE DRILLS. NO SHOOTING. CLEARANCE DRILLS ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times within time limits listed below. Possible total deduction of 75 pts from shooting score.


Position One (Failure to Fire): 1.0 sec


Position Two (Failure to Eject): 1.0 sec


Position Three (Feedway Stoppage): 4.0 sec


Qualification:


Possible total is 400 pts. You need 360 pts (90%) to pass. Penalties are assessed as follows:


5 pts are deducted from candidates score for each occurrence of the following offenses:


Premature start/"creeping"


Overtime shot. If caused by a malfunction and candidate properly clears it, no penalty is assessed.


Hit on hostage or object designated as cover.


Overtime speed load, tactical load or malfunction clearance.
 

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I never learned to shoot fast by shooting slow. Others may believe slow is smooth and smooth is fast, I've got no problem with their believing that's true.

I think it stems from the fact that if you're jerky in your draw trying to be fast, you're actually slower, can fumble a draw, lose the weapon [ I've seen guns thrown downrange where that person pushed past their normal comfort level ]. That's true to a point, I think it's valid to some degree for many people.

I'm not very concerned with smooth, I was always concerned with developing speed. IMO, one can't develop more speed than their body knows how to use presently without pushing for speed. Pushing for smooth will never get someone to what I consider fast, you're not pushing those twitch muscles past their present comfort level.

Lets look at another example of where speed may be used. Disarms. I know for a fact I can move my hand from at my side to a gun pointed at me in .17 seconds today, and haven't lost that speed over decades [ since 81 anyway ]. I probably started at .20.21 seconds to touch the gun. Hundreds of dry exercises per month for a few months after learning the disarm/s, pushing for more speed, I got to that .17 seconds. I developed those particular set twitch muscles quickly. No that .17 is any better at making a disarm over a .20/.21 time to touch the gun, but it gives me a slight margin of safety. Safety? yes, the average adult has a reaction time of something slightly over .25 seconds to visual or auditory or movement cues. Action beats reaction is absolutely true. BUT, if you had a very smooth move to the gun that was at .25-28 or more seconds, you could get shot trying to make the disarm/s.

Another example, heavens six with the sticks. I worked for at least an hour a day with the sticks only having the basics of several of the drills. I worked out of control with the double sticks for hours, and once knocked myself out with one of the sticks because the twitch muscles weren't developed yet to have that speed and control of the sticks. Within a month those muscles were developed and were perfectly capable of control with speed.

If we were to take 1.5 seconds as the base for being fast from concealed, the majority would not be considered fast [ no matter how smooth they were in drawing the gun ]. What would those who can draw and fire under that 1.5 second threshold be considered? Fast.

Now take the 1.5 second base and make it 1.2 seconds as fast. Fewer still would be considered fast. Those who could draw and fire under 1.2 seconds would be considered fast. You get the idea. I've had people proclaim they are fast on the draw with a 2 second draw to fire time. Fast is therefore a relative term. When someone challenged my statement that I was fast to first shot from the holster telling me I might not be fast as I thought I was if I'd not actually been on a timer. So I did the timer to see just how fast I was, and when the times were demonstrated on a video, the editor showing me in .00 seconds what the time to first shot was, that person exclaimed yes, I was fast. I didn't need a timer to tell me that, I needed a timer to prove to someone else I was fast. But again

Fast is a relative word. Fast for some is slow for someone else. There are less people who can draw and fire from concealed in under 1.2 seconds than otherwise who carry in this country. Some believe they are fast at 2 seconds, and they are, for them. They just haven't pushed past their comfort level to develop the twitch muscles further.
I wanted to add this to the above thought process.


Jelly Bryce had a .40 second draw stroke in a strong side belt holster, from under a sport coat. How to hell could that be humanly possible. But it is, and it's a fact humans can get that fast but only IF they spend an inordinate amount of time developing those particular twitch muscles like Bryce and Jordan did in front of a full length mirror. Hours upon hours upon hours of draw strokes, they became extremely fast, and never used a timer to "get there". When Bryce was timed with rudimentary electronic equipment of the day, he learned for the first time how fast he was.

"Bryce walked over to the car, around to the driver's door, and opened it. The man inside looked up, startled. He had some tools and it looked like he was in the process of trying to start the car without a key.

"What are you doing?" Bryce asked.

"Who are you?" the man snarled.

"A police officer."

Without another word the man drew a pistol from under his coat and tried to aim it at Bryce. Before he could fire Bryce drew and killed him. The man slid out of the car onto the cement, dead. "


Pretty fast

"One night in 1927 Bryce, alone on night patrol, saw two men in an alley trying to jimmy the back door of a furniture store. He swerved his patrol car into the mouth of the alley, skidding to a stop with his two front lights trained on the two men. He jumped from the car. The two men spun and both opened fire at the same instant.

Bryce killed them both instantly with just two shots. "


Pretty fast, and accurate

"Bryce had killed 3 men his first year, all of them attempting to fire first."

I'd say that's pretty damned fast

"Oklahoma City detectives learned that there were three known gangsters holed up at the Wren Hotel at 408 1/2 West Main in Oklahoma City. One was known to be Harvey Pugh, former companion of murderer and cop killer Clyde Barrow. Pugh himself was wanted for the murder of a police officer in McPherson, Kansas. Bryce and two other detectives were dispatched to arrest Pugh and question the other two men.

They arrived at the hotel at around 8 a.m. At the front desk was an elderly woman, Nora Bingaman, whose daughter owned the hotel. The officers asked to see the owner, Mrs Merle Bolen, 28 years old. Mrs. Bingaman agreed to take them to her daughter's room.

They followed the old lady up the dark stairs and down a dingy hallway to her daughter's room. The old lady knocked perfunctorily and opened the door. But before the detectives could enter the old lady looked startled and tried to step back and pull the door closed again.

Bryce jammed his foot in the door. "I told you we're police officers," he growled and shoved the door open. He stepped into the room.

Inside the room, lounged on the bed in skimpy pajamas, lay Mrs. Merle Bolen, the owner of the hotel, and J. Ray O'Donnell. O'Donnell was one of the gangsters the detectives had come to question. He was holding two automatic pistols.

Bryce's .38 was still holstered on his hip under his coat. Without saying a word O'Donnell raised the pistols at Bryce to fire point blank. A single motion blurred with speed, Bryce drew and killed him before he could pull the trigger. Bryce's first shot entered O'Donnell's chin followed by four that struck him in the head area, the fifth going into the mattress of the bed. Screaming, the woman leaped to safety near a wash stand in the corner.

Bryce later said, "When I looked into the room there he was, up on his elbows with a gun in both hands, aimed right at me. He was lying on the near side, and the woman was on the other side of him.
I jumped to one side, out of the line of fire, grabbed my gun and tore him up."

"It was also in Oklahoma City that Bryce perfected his quick draw, practicing facing a full-length mirror at police headquarters, sometimes for as much as 8 hours at a time."


That's serious development of twitch muscles.

"So, just how good were Bryce's eyes? An optometrist asked about it said, "It's impossible to measure beyond 20/10. It would be more than just the eyes, though; it would be the eye-hand coordination which would have to be almost unbelievable."

Eye-hand coordination, highly developed twitch muscles. Nothing more to it, in many endeavors we enjoy.
 

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Another fast shooter was Ed MCGivern, I have his book called fast and fancy revolver shooting. He was faster than Bryce. He worked with law enforcement later in his career with firearms.

Just an fyi in case someone was interested in reading about what was possible with revolvers
 

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A few years back, Marvel Comics creator Stan Lee hosted a show entitled "Stan Lee's Superhumans" on the History Channel. One of the people he featured was Bob Munden who, at the time of filming still walked in the land of the living. Had Jelly Bryce or Ed McGivern still walked there, they could have as easily been featured. These guys were indeed "superhuman"--reflexes, reaction times, hand-eye coordination and dedication all came together to give them the incredible skills that they demonstrated. Of all those qualities they developed, I'm thinking that one-in-a-million reaction times played heavily into their abilities.

I've mentioned having trained under Scott Jedlinski, who founded and operates Modern Samurai Project along with his wife Bev. He demo's everything he teaches, and even some stuff he doesn't directly teach. His speed and accuracy are impressive. In a demo I watched in person, he was chasing (and surpassed) his own best time on a timed drill that starts out aimed at the first of several targets. The shot timer sounds, and he already has the first target. His time from the beginning of the beep to first shot was .07 seconds. My best time similarly gauged is .13, which is fast. Normal reaction time is somewhere in the .2 realm. Fast reaction times are in the .1's. .07 puts a guy well out in front of the rest of the pack before ever touching the gun.
I spoke with Munden twice back in 2000 and 2001 about attending his week long instructional course using six shooters. Figured I could pick up some tips on the speed front. Alas, he required you purchase a firearm maker of his choosing, send him the gun and he'd work his comp magic on it for the course.

Not including air fare and room/food, it was a 5K proposition. I decided I didn't need to spend that kind of money to perhaps gain a few thousandths off draw speed.
 

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I know some people that live elsewhere and their range will allow them to draw after going thru a modest demo and observance from the RSO. Then they get signed off on and get a little necklace badge to wear to show they’ve been qualified and approved to draw and shoot. I’ve suggested it to the one place I go to often but it sounded too much like work to them so they balked. Meanwhile cops and armed guards with specific certs are allowed to do it. Makes no sense to me but it ain’t my place so oh well.
Discrimination law suit will get you shooting from the holster too ;)
 

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I'm missing what is being argued here. Speed and accuracy are the results of efficient, effective technique. Learn the technique, practice it, and perfect it and voila, you get to sit with Brownie at the grown-up table.
I sit off the main table.
Rushing to hit a target is the fastest way to miss it.

I'm going to use brownie as an example. He is wicked fast and shoots accurately. He didn't strike me as the flinching type.

It's that combination that allows 'successful' gun usage against armed targets. Add some 'luck' and 'common sense' and one can grow old.

Speed alone isn't poo. How one attains that 'combination' is up for debate.
I've done that on several outing in practice, but I was solely after the development of the twitch muscles. ;)
 

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Might also get one banned from going there. It’s a private business and their rules. No different than ‘no shirt, no shoes, no service’ signs.
Class action lawsuit, your problem solved. Might get to shoot from the holster and a free lifetime membership on top of anything monetarily
 

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'Fast is Fast' as a phrase has the same failing that 'slow is smooth, smooth is fast' does, and it's obvious that it was developed as a counter to an existing school of thought.

Both schools have the same goal: Speed and Accuracy

The question of start fast or start slow, can be argued, legitimately
, as long as no one forgets or fails to understand that it's the shared goal that is critically important to survival.

Are you a student of history or bad movies? Acolytes who start to set rules for whom their master is allowed to associate with tend to meet bad ends.
I started slow, for 10 years anyway. In that time, I'd not shot in matches, just lazily playing at the range shooting tiny little groups like most people.

Then I was taught how to stay alive with a handgun in 81. The rules changed that week for me. No more slow lazy days at the range plinking tiny little groups as I was working the streets and would be working with that group of people from time to time overseas in some nasty biz.

From that moment I got back from the compound, it was train to speed of draw to hits, speed of split times. So I started that road not as a novice, but shooting in a manner that would not afford me much life expectancy in the games I was playing and would be playing in the future.

Built the speed of draw just from practicing draw strokes over some time. Then, not being happy with the slower than I wanted progress of speed trying to concentrate on accuracy [ at least combat accuracy ], having discovered how twitch muscles are developed, I would run the gun out of control. I was only interested in trigger speed [ the training of the trigger finger to move faster for more shots per second ]. Isolating the training of the trigger finger, isolated the draw stroke and then the two came together when paired in a sequence of draw and fire practice.

I wouldn't recommend nor condone anyone that's a novice at handgun skills to instantly trying to shoot out of control to gain trigger speed anymore than I'd recommend or condone a new/novice shooter start yanking the gun out of the holster in an effort to be fast. Both would be unsafe for a novice, not well heeled in running a gun to begin with.

Lets say for the first 10 years, I advanced to a 6th grade level, after the boys showed me some real skills for the streets, lets say I went from 6th to 12th grade in the next year. And within two more years, I'd graduated college with a masters degree.

So, 10 years to get out of grade school, just 1 year to 12th and 2 more to a masters degree. There's a learning curve, but the more you have as a base, the faster you find can move through the grades till you're an accomplished SD pistol shooter with numerous skills behind you.
 

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Maybe; or one could just shoot IDPA.
I’m so blessed that my range has weekly IDPA practices in addition to the monthly matches!
You are at that. And an excellent way to keep up on some of the skills. Bladnbullet does or at least used to do the same thing to stay sharp on the skill. Not gaming it, running it like it was the street. He takes his penalties when he thinks he's got a better real world solution.
 
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