[mike1956]

I'm just wondering whether speed from concealment is something that is important to members here. I seldom see it discussed.

Is speed a part of your practice/training routine?

If so, is a shot timer a part of that routine?

 

[brownie]

Jelly Bryce, the legendary FBI agent sharpshooter

Found this on the net searching for something else about Wild Bill Hickock a few years back and put it up on my forum back then JELLY BRYCE,THE FBI'S LEGENDARY SHARPSHOOTER November 12, 1945, by K. B. Chaffin On November 12, 1945, Life Magazine ran an unusual story. It was a photographic...

www.floridaconcealedcarry.com

Post 5 are my thoughts on draw speed from 2009

And this one from 2016

fast draw vs quick draw vs scoop draw

Fast draw: https://www.cowboyfastdraw.com/ Requiring special equipment for such shooting. Quick draw: http://www.howarddarby.com/fast-draw-artist.html Using a different name, but still requiring special equipment for such shooting COWBOY FAST DRAW WORLD RECORD HOLDERS Men's Record -Master...

www.floridaconcealedcarry.com

I've used a shot timer, not for training, but to establish what those decades of training brought to the plate relative speed of presentation. I saw no need for a timer for training.

Be all you can be over a period of intense training and multiples of rds downrange, then use a timer to see what all the practice has produced. Not happy with the time, practice more, much more.

Bryce and Jordan would stand in front of a full length mirror for hours practicing their draw, both from open and concealed carry. If ya don't put in the time, you're mediocre at best. That's fine if you're one who believes mediocre is perfectly fine. Mediocre is perfectly acceptable for many. We see that on every gun board.

 

[BeerHunter]

What brownie said.

 

[Rick McC.]

Yes, and yes.

 

[mike1956]

Jelly Bryce, the legendary FBI agent sharpshooter

Found this on the net searching for something else about Wild Bill Hickock a few years back and put it up on my forum back then JELLY BRYCE,THE FBI'S LEGENDARY SHARPSHOOTER November 12, 1945, by K. B. Chaffin On November 12, 1945, Life Magazine ran an unusual story. It was a photographic...

www.floridaconcealedcarry.com

Post 5 are my thoughts on draw speed from 2009

And this one from 2016

fast draw vs quick draw vs scoop draw

Fast draw: https://www.cowboyfastdraw.com/ Requiring special equipment for such shooting. Quick draw: http://www.howarddarby.com/fast-draw-artist.html Using a different name, but still requiring special equipment for such shooting COWBOY FAST DRAW WORLD RECORD HOLDERS Men's Record -Master...

www.floridaconcealedcarry.com

I've used a shot timer, not for training, but to establish what those decades of training brought to the plate relative speed of presentation. I saw no need for a timer for training.

Be all you can be over a period of intense training and multiples of rds downrange, then use a timer to see what all the practice has produced. Not happy with the time, practice more, much more.

Bryce and Jordan would stand in front of a full length mirror for hours practicing their draw, both from open and concealed carry. If ya don't put in the time, you're mediocre at best. That's fine if you're one who believes mediocre is perfectly fine. Mediocre is perfectly acceptable for many. We see that on every gun board.

All great stuff. I'm glad to be a part of your choir.

 

[mike1956]

Another thought regarding Brownie's post.

The shot timer has indeed become an integral part of my training, not only as a measure of my speed, but also as an indicator of the window I'm striving to operate within. My current goal is a reliable A-zone hit from concealment in less than one second. Both during dry and live fire sessions, I'll run the shot timer set with a one-second par time. I've been able to break that one second down into three distinct actions, with a decent idea of where I need to be when I hear the timer. If my cover garment hasn't been cleared and my draw grip achieved by the end of the .3 second beep, I know that I'm behind the curve and needing to make up some time on step two.

It's essentially the same thing for the 25-yard A-zone shot, except I have the extra time for step three, painting the target with the dot and pulling the trigger. The timer not only measures my time, it also helps me with muscle memory and efficiency throughout the process.

 

[Ronnie948]

My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.

 

[mike1956]

My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.

I'll take all that to mean that speed and accuracy aren't what you train and practice for. Thanks!

 

[gandrfab]

I'll take all that to mean that speed and accuracy aren't what you train and practice for. Thanks!

 

[mike1956]

That's what she said...

Sorry, but that one was right across the plate, and I had to swing.

 

[gandrfab]

That's what she said...

Sorry, but that one was right across the plate, and I had to swing.

Same.

 

[brownie]

My stupid opinion again.
In a situation, Staying calm and thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg.
YES, Practice as much as possible on how to get the gun out and ready because it is important.
But know that in a fast moving situation, Staying calm and knowing what steps you need to take is just as important as the gunslinger draw. ((( this is why we practice)))
If you do not mentally calm yourself, You will be useless with a bullet in your leg due to shaking and trying to be a quick draw.
You can get upset and start shaking after the event is over.
Ronnie

PS:
I know a lot of you on the forum have been in bad situations and know exactly what I am saying.

Well Ronnie, I'm not sure if you ever worked the streets, ever had a DGU event in the civilian world or not. I can state emphatically that had I not practiced to a fast draw stroke, I'd not have survived at least two events [ and I've never shot myself in the leg in practice nor in the wild.

Speed of presentation, hundreds of students through the pistol course where each was forced to draw fast and make hits. NOT one of those students shot themselves in the leg drawing with speed. Most had never tried to be as fast as they were in the courses, so the muscle memory wasn't there when they arrived, but two days later that muscle memory was well developed through hundreds of draw strokes.

People who poo poo a fast draw stroke are usually the ones who never trained to have that talent. It's nothing more than developing one's twitch muscles and proprioception. Doesn't take a lifetime to develop said speed of presentation. Hundreds of students would tell you that's absolutely true, they were part and parcel to being able, in just two days, to have said fast draw stroke.

I can tell you this though, an oh sheet moment doesn't require one to remain calm.. How do we know that? In the face of life and death events, our heart rates elevate to over 100bpm. There are few will train to keep that heart rate below 80 when startled.. I know I haven't trained for that, but I do know this-- an elevated heart rate doesn't mean one can't perform admirably like defending themselves out of hand.

There is NO calm when taking incoming, so one learns to command their functions while enjoying that elevated heart rate. You either have no experience on the street in DGU's or you've just become too cynical in your old age to understand the dynamics people work through "on the fly". Those who register elevated heart bpm's AND have the training/skills do a whole lot better than those who haven't trained for the fight [ either simulated stress like FoF or live fire exercises.

Now if you're a mediocre shooter at best, have no formal training in surviving DGU's, then perhaps when startled, you'll panic and excede your present abilities [ through a lack of prior training ]. But that's not the story with well trained people who've let their body develop their twitch muscles and proprioception under duress. Examples would be Bryce, Jordan, Col. Askins, Fairbairn/Sykes, Applegate.

Far too many people who carry flat out suck when it comes to being fast in their responses, strictly due to lack of training and developing those proprioceptors. These are the types that don't believe all that prior training is all that beneficial. You seem to fall into this category of gun carrier. It's okay to be mediocre, it's okay to not want to spend the time and money it takes to develop speed.

"thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg."

I'm not sure how much thinking goes into putting lead on threat when the first shot comes at 1 second or less. The thinking, that should take place in training environs, not on the street when it's for all the marbles [ and that's where the majority of shooters are in this country ]

 

[brownie]

I'll take all that to mean that speed and accuracy aren't what you train and practice for. Thanks!

Few practice for speed and accuracy. I'll make the distinction here that accuracy in my mind means combat accuracy. Col. Askins was a world class bullseye shooter across the US. Slow fire with super accuracy were the order of the day. ya know what? Askins was also a border agent who practiced speed from the holster, and had upwards of 27 DGU's along the border. He had two national pistol shooting awards for bullseye shooting. But he understood slow extreme accurate shots had NO place on the border dealing with hombre's trying to kill him.

I can't count how many people I've heard tell others they are great shots because they can put 5-6 rounds inside a quarter at 5 yrds [ pick the numbers you get the idea ]. They do so taking their time for each shot, as if taking the time to make ultra precision shots will stand them well when the sheet hits the fan on the streets. They are ill prepared, and mostly don't know what they don't know.

 

[mike1956]

Well Ronnie, I'm not sure if you ever worked the streets, ever had a DGU event in the civilian world or not. I can state emphatically that had I not practiced to a fast draw stroke, I'd not have survived at least two events [ and I've never shot myself in the leg in practice nor in the wild.

Speed of presentation, hundreds of students through the pistol course where each was forced to draw fast and make hits. NOT one of those students shot themselves in the leg drawing with speed. Most had never tried to be as fast as they were in the courses, so the muscle memory wasn't there when they arrived, but two days later that muscle memory was well developed through hundreds of draw strokes.

People who poo poo a fast draw stroke are usually the ones who never trained to have that talent. It's nothing more than developing one's twitch muscles and proprioception. Doesn't take a lifetime to develop said speed of presentation. Hundreds of students would tell you that's absolutely true, they were part and parcel to being able, in just two days, to have said fast draw stroke.

I can tell you this though, an oh sheet moment doesn't require one to remain calm.. How do we know that? In the face of life and death events, our heart rates elevate to over 100bpm. There are few will train to keep that heart rate below 80 when startled.. I know I haven't trained for that, but I do know this-- an elevated heart rate doesn't mean one can't perform admirably like defending themselves out of hand.

There is NO calm when taking incoming, so one learns to command their functions while enjoying that elevated heart rate. You either have no experience on the street in DGU's or you've just become too cynical in your old age to understand the dynamics people work through "on the fly". Those who register elevated heart bpm's AND have the training/skills do a whole lot better than those who haven't trained for the fight [ either simulated stress like FoF or live fire exercises.

Now if you're a mediocre shooter at best, have no formal training in surviving DGU's, then perhaps when startled, you'll panic and excede your present abilities [ through a lack of prior training ]. But that's not the story with well trained people who've let their body develop their twitch muscles and proprioception under duress. Examples would be Bryce, Jordan, Col. Askins, Fairbairn/Sykes, Applegate.

Far too many people who carry flat out suck when it comes to being fast in their responses, strictly due to lack of training and developing those proprioceptors. These are the types that don't believe all that prior training is all that beneficial. You seem to fall into this category of gun carrier. It's okay to be mediocre, it's okay to not want to spend the time and money it takes to develop speed.

"thinking more about what you are to do is much more important then a fast drew that may probably end up shooting yourself in the leg."

I'm not sure how much thinking goes into putting lead on threat when the first shot comes at 1 second or less. The thinking, that should take place in training environs, not on the street when it's for all the marbles [ and that's where the majority of shooters are in this country ]

Yours wasn't the first (or even the tenth) "advanced" handgun class I took. It was and remains the farthest I've traveled to attend, but not the first. You were, however the first instructor who emphasized and taught speed of presentation as a core fundamental of the class. It literally changed me in my approach to and goals to strive for in my role as an armed citizen.

I've taken a number of even more "advanced" classes since our time together in Florida. Until my very last one, with Modern Samurai Project, yours was also the last class I attended where speed and accuracy were the goals. Three guys--you, David Bowie of Bowie Tactical Concepts and Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai project are the only instructors whose presentations and approaches changed my shooting philosophy and skills at their very core. Sure, I've learned stuff from other instructors, but you guys showed me what is important, and how to achieve it.

 

[mike1956]

Few practice for speed and accuracy. I'll make the distinction here that accuracy in my mind means combat accuracy. Col. Askins was a world class bullseye shooter across the US. Slow fire with super accuracy were the order of the day. ya know what? Askins was also a border agent who practiced speed from the holster, and had upwards of 27 DGU's along the border. He had two national pistol shooting awards for bullseye shooting. But he understood slow extreme accurate shots had NO place on the border dealing with hombre's trying to kill him.

I can't count how many people I've heard tell others they are great shots because they can put 5-6 rounds inside a quarter at 5 yrds [ pick the numbers you get the idea ]. They do so taking their time for each shot, as if taking the time to make ultra precision shots will stand them well when the sheet hits the fan on the streets. They are ill prepared, and mostly don't know what they don't know.

Dunning Kruger is in effect with most, for sure. For many, what they are good at is good enough. When test time rolls around, they aren't even as good at that as they thought they were.

 

[brownie]

Dunning Kruger is in effect with most, for sure. For many, what they are good at is good enough. When test time rolls around, they aren't even as good at that as they thought they were.

Therein is the problem with most gun carriers, they think drilling tiny little groups makes them a pistolero of magnitude on the street when the balloon goes up. They are ill prepared for the fight, because they haven't trained for the fight.

I was one of those people myself once upon a time. But working the streets, I knew I needed more skills than drilling tiny little groups which I do handily on command. Had I not attended SIONICS where I learned to survive DGU's [ learning to stay alive with a handgun ] I'd have been planted in the ground starting somewhere in the early 80's.

Speed of presentation kept me above ground for 28 years working the streets and "events" I was asked to participate in OCONUS during the 80's.

I'm older and slower today than I used to be 40 years ago. Slower for me is likely still giving me an advantage over the majority of shooters out there. Just 3 years ago, I had a Delta operator [ out of the service for just a few years and roughly 30 years of age ] who didn't think I could make him faster at hits on threat. He was willing to see what I could do for him though, based on a US Ranger telling him he's learn to be faster to first shot on threat.

I was in my mid 60's at the time. I had him stand next to me to my left so I could peripherally see his hand move to the gun on his belt, that would be my signal to draw and fire. Remember now, he's former Delta, all they do is shoot houses and missions. When his hand moved to the gun, I put two into my target before he got a shot off.

Dumbfounded that someone twice his age could make him look like a 3rd grader, he smiled at me and said "I'm all ears sir". He was enlightened all day in several skills. I remember him working the QK hip one shot on each of two threats. His speed was good, but I had to tell him to stop dogging it and shoot faster. He said he couldn't shoot any faster, then within the next 5 minutes being pushed, he saw he was faster. And he didn't shoot his leg all day either

The mind is the limiting factor.

 

[mike1956]

Therein is the problem with most gun carriers, they think drilling tiny little groups makes them a pistolero of magnitude on the street when the balloon goes up. They are ill prepared for the fight, because they haven't trained for the fight.

I was one of those people myself once upon a time. But working the streets, I knew I needed more skills than drilling tiny little groups which I do handily on command. Had I not attended SIONICS where I learned to survive DGU's [ learning to stay alive with a handgun ] I'd have been planted in the ground starting somewhere in the early 80's.

Speed of presentation kept me above ground for 28 years working the streets and "events" I was asked to participate in OCONUS during the 80's.

Sionics was much like Vietnam, I'm thinking. Unless you were there...

 

[Ronnie948]

I did not say to not train and practice, I have been in a few very bad situations in Nam and a few here in America and I am still here. My first time in Nam, I was pretty well shaking and thank God a Sargent was there and saved me and my person I was driving for. He took me aside later and explained the stay calm to me. The few events after was when I learned best how to defend myself and I never ever forgot his advice.
I did practice and train my brain. (((A LOT)))
I still have a knife scar in my side from an event in Hunts Point New York back in 1979. I stayed very calm and my North American arms saved the day.
I also at one time in Miami when going into a warehouse late at night seen a big guy have a police officer up against a wall trying to get the officers gum. I got out of my truck and put my shotgun against the attackers head. The guy was cuffed and the cop told me to go so I would not be stuck with all the red tape crap.

And, Brownie, You of all people should know how getting all excited and not thinking straight is "NOT" the way to go in a situation.
PRACTICE - PRACTICE & more PRACTICE is what is needed, But you know as well as I do that not all gun owners will take the time to learn anything about how to react.
Ronnie

 

[brownie]

Sionics was much like Vietnam, I'm thinking. Unless you were there...

I was there. Didn't learn to stay alive with a handgun until SIONICS however.

 

[mike1956]

I did not say to not train and practice, I have been in a few very bad situations in Nam and a few here in America and I am still here. My first time in Nam, I was pretty well shaking and thank God a Sargent was there and saved me and my person I was driving for. He took me aside later and explained the stay calm to me. The few events after was when I learned best how to defend myself and I never ever forgot his advice.
I did practice and train my brain. (((A LOT)))
I still have a knife scar in my side from an event in Hunts Point New York back in 1979. I stayed very calm and my North American arms saved the day.
I also at one time in Miami when going into a warehouse late at night seen a big guy have a police officer up against a wall trying to get the officers gum. I got out of my truck and put my shotgun against the attackers head. The guy was cuffed and the cop told me to go so I would not be stuck with all the red tape crap.

And, Brownie, You of all people should know how getting all excited and not thinking straight is "NOT" the way to go in a situation.
PRACTICE - PRACTICE & more PRACTICE is what is needed, But you know as well as I do that not all gun owners will take the time to learn anything about how to react.
Ronnie

Sorry, I didn't realize that you're an old guy when I was making my snarky retorts.

Do you still train/practice?