because a minority is a protected class....concealed weapons license holders are not...
Dade County Fair & Expo: No Weapons.
The Dade County Fair & Expo has big signs for anyone living in South Florida intent on heading there. I secured mine in the vehicle when I got there the other day. They do not pat you down or make you pass through metal detectors, though they will inspect all backpacks and purses before letting you in.
Now there are several police officers on the fairgrounds but there's also a number of hoodlums around at night. About four years ago there was an incident at a gas station down the road from the fair. Three guys attempted to rob a woman who'd left the fair with her kids. They didn't expect the woman's husband to be in the other car pulling into the gas station. They also didn't expect him to be carrying his own pistol.
Now there are several police officers on the fairgrounds but there's also a number of hoodlums around at night. About four years ago there was an incident at a gas station down the road from the fair. Three guys attempted to rob a woman who'd left the fair with her kids. They didn't expect the woman's husband to be in the other car pulling into the gas station. They also didn't expect him to be carrying his own pistol.
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
As much as I hate to get this thread further off topic.... wouldn't it be great to get the ACLU suing FOR gun rights!:laughing:clap:rolf
Since the on-topic stuff has been covered I don't mind that much.As much as I hate to get this thread further off topic.... wouldn't it be great to get the ACLU suing FOR gun rights!:laughing:clap:rolf
I was watching the Southern Poverty Law Center talk about "Racist white militias" last night and the only details I could remember were from an unrelated story by another party discussing the SPLC's agenda since its inception of discrediting government opposition. "Civil rights groups" are funny.
Can we get some Buckley here?
Did a little digging. The owner of the property according to the tax rolls is Maimi-Dade parks and rec. That makes it county land.
if so the signs can be ignored, but then again who wants to be the test case?Did a little digging. The owner of the property according to the tax rolls is Maimi-Dade parks and rec. That makes it county land.
Even if it's county land, I believe the fair is leasing the land and so I believe they can make the rules during their time there. You can't be arrested for carrying concealed, but you can be arrested for trespassing if they ask you to leave and you don't.
I'm not so sure Ruby. There's been some discussion in other threads about the premise that the government cannot convey a privilege that it, itself, does not have. In other words, If Dade County Parks & Rec owns the property, and Dade County Parks & Rec is prohibited by Florida Statute from exercising any authority over firearms, then they cannot legally convey that authority to a lessee.Even if it's county land, I believe the fair is leasing the land and so I believe they can make the rules during their time there. You can't be arrested for carrying concealed, but you can be arrested for trespassing if they ask you to leave and you don't.
Problem is that to my knowledge, there is no case law to support the position. A similar, but not identical situation exists in Lee County, where the gun shows are held in a County civic center that clearly has "no firearms" signs posted at the entrances.
Same thing here where gunshows are held in the exhibition hall at the county fairgrounds...with off-duty LEO sitting at the check-in counter...I just walk right past 'em, but I've always questioned the legality of it in the first place.I'm not so sure Ruby. There's been some discussion in other threads about the premise that the government cannot convey a privilege that it, itself, does not have. In other words, If Dade County Parks & Rec owns the property, and Dade County Parks & Rec is prohibited by Florida Statute from exercising any authority over firearms, then they cannot legally convey that authority to a lessee.
Problem is that to my knowledge, there is no case law to support the position. A similar, but not identical situation exists in Lee County, where the gun shows are held in a County civic center that clearly has "no firearms" signs posted at the entrances.
That tells me that there's still a lot of gray area as to how lawful / legal those signs are. However, it does not change how the authorities might react if they were to find out. Even if we assume the only way it comes to light is through lawful use of your firearm for self-defense...I'm not so sure Ruby. There's been some discussion in other threads about the premise that the government cannot convey a privilege that it, itself, does not have. In other words, If Dade County Parks & Rec owns the property, and Dade County Parks & Rec is prohibited by Florida Statute from exercising any authority over firearms, then they cannot legally convey that authority to a lessee.
Problem is that to my knowledge, there is no case law to support the position.
Pending that type of scenario, is there something that you could be charged with for having the weapon there in the first place?
Well, I don't think there's any case law because no one has ever been ejected for that reason. But it's not gray area as far as how lawful or legal the signs are in general. Any sign that says no firearms at a location not prohibited by 790.06(12) FS can not legally apply to a CWFL holder. It merely expresses the wishes of the owner of the private property. The gray area begins when governmental entities believe they have all the privileges of private property owners. Case law, I believe, has not supported that position in the past, but I'm not aware of case law that addresses it with regards to firearms regulation.That tells me that there's still a lot of gray area as to how lawful / legal those signs are. However, it does not change how the authorities might react if they were to find out. Even if we assume the only way it comes to light is through lawful use of your firearm for self-defense...
Pending that type of scenario, is there something that you could be charged with for having the weapon there in the first place?
But nonetheless, the only thing that happens is you would be asked to leave. If you comply with that request, no problem.
well, my mentality is, if it is concealed, meaning REALLY concealed, no one should know about it, and thus, should not be an issue unless you take the gun out for defensive reasons... and then the issue becomes like any other defensive shooting, say, like at a gas station...
Now here's a question (kind of on topic) that requires some thought. What if there were metal detectors at the gates? I know that at courtrooms and federal buildings, there are metal detectors with a sign in front of them stating NO FIREARMS, but it has the chapter 790 statute cited on the sign. What about this fair, no statute on the sign, but metal detectors nonetheless? Would you just walk through the metal detector, hear the beep, and pretend you didn't hear it?:rolf Could they legally even do that?
Now here's a question (kind of on topic
) that requires some thought. What if there were metal detectors at the gates? I know that at courtrooms and federal buildings, there are metal detectors with a sign in front of them stating NO FIREARMS, but it has the chapter 790 statute cited on the sign. What about this fair, no statute on the sign, but metal detectors nonetheless? Would you just walk through the metal detector, hear the beep, and pretend you didn't hear it?:rolf Could they legally even do that?
YES! Cops can and will charge you with whatever they think applies. You might be surprised to find out how little LEOs know regarding CC laws. One told me he just looks at a CCW and if it looks legit, he lets it go. He has no clue where we can and cannot carry. Cops don't care what happens to you after they drop you off at jail. It's up to a DA to decide to pursue the charges, and up to you to pay a lawyer to defend yourself. A buddy here at work got picked up and charged with a bunch of things because a cabbie saw his revolver. He's confident they will all be dropped, but it's costing a fortune I'm sure.Pending that type of scenario, is there something that you could be charged with for having the weapon there in the first place?
It's sort of ridiculous.YES! Cops can and will charge you with whatever they think applies. You might be surprised to find out how little LEOs know regarding CC laws. One told me he just looks at a CCW and if it looks legit, he lets it go. He has no clue where we can and cannot carry. Cops don't care what happens to you after they drop you off at jail. It's up to a DA to decide to pursue the charges, and up to you to pay a lawyer to defend yourself. A buddy here at work got picked up and charged with a bunch of things because a cabbie saw his revolver. He's confident they will all be dropped, but it's costing a fortune I'm sure.
It just seems to me as though the "Just leave the premises" might not be a valid response in some situations. They may wish to charge you immediately for criminal trespass before even asking you to leave.
Amazingly enough, they can't do that. Florida Statutes specifically require a request to leave and a refusal in order to be charged with trespass.It's sort of ridiculous.
It just seems to me as though the "Just leave the premises" might not be a valid response in some situations. They may wish to charge you immediately for criminal trespass before even asking you to leave.
been there done that, you get someone who sees your gun, calls in a man with a gun, a dozen cops come running, draw down on you, cart you off to jail, confiscate the gun and you get to spend some time in jail, hire an expensive lawyer, to prove that you've broken no laws. and to boot the DA/SA knows that there's no real case here and assigns their most incompetent and worst prosecutor to your case because nobody in the office wants a losing case, a year later, 6 court appearances, a ton of expense for the lawyer to appear 6 times just for the case to be dismissed because they've decided they've busted your horns enough and no crime was committedYES! Cops can and will charge you with whatever they think applies. You might be surprised to find out how little LEOs know regarding CC laws. One told me he just looks at a CCW and if it looks legit, he lets it go. He has no clue where we can and cannot carry. Cops don't care what happens to you after they drop you off at jail. It's up to a DA to decide to pursue the charges, and up to you to pay a lawyer to defend yourself. A buddy here at work got picked up and charged with a bunch of things because a cabbie saw his revolver. He's confident they will all be dropped, but it's costing a fortune I'm sure.
where's the justice?
No its not and no they can't. We just went through this with various county and city parks and are in the process with some of the RWMDs. DO NOT risk an armed trespass charge if this occurs, comply, then call a lawyer. Local governments in Florida are subject to preemption of state law. They cannot perform arbitrary and capricious action. They must have an authorizing ordinance or administrative rule for any action. Any such ordinance or rule is illegal per 790.33.I keep seeing this subject raised on this forum. It's like any other private property. The owner can refuse admission to anyone. They can throw out anyone. If you refuse to go, they can have you trespassed. The AMC locally supposedly hires off duty LEO to keep an eye on things. I heard they will throw you out if you're caught with a concealed weapon.
The above assumes government ownership. There is a legitimate question in my mind as to whether or not the right to prohibit exists to a lessee of gov't property.
As to the discrimination issue I covered it in another thread but here is the condensed version.
Constitutional rights only apply to gov't action. There are specific civil rights laws protecting certain categorizations, race and gender most common, religion and national origin sometimes from being the basis off private discrimination. The guns in parking lots law, or the new adoption bill would be a similar in that they prohibit discrimination against gun owners in certain places or relationships even by private individuals.
Just stay concealed and don't worry. No one is going to know you're carrying unless you're careless, or you have to shoot someone. Don't be careless, and if you have to shoot someone, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
I got my permit because I wanted to carry, not once in awhile but all the time. Other than work (when I'm working), I carry everywhere. Everywhere.
I got my permit because I wanted to carry, not once in awhile but all the time. Other than work (when I'm working), I carry everywhere. Everywhere.
Sorry for bringing up a thread long dead - however... next year it looks much brighter for Florida to get open carry passed.
That will surely push to the forefront and possibly bring to a head this long on-going issue of whether you can be excluded or ejected from public property used for public events if lawfully armed, just because the property may be leased by a private entity.
What will happen is some folks will conceal to get in, then later discreetly switch to open carry (if legalized). If they get kicked out, they will then have standing to sue. Hopefully, the courts will come down with the correct decision in favor of carry rights on public property.
The Florida Legislature actually should have fixed this long ago with clear language in the preemption statute. Has anyone ever written their lawmakers about this? If so, what was the response?
That will surely push to the forefront and possibly bring to a head this long on-going issue of whether you can be excluded or ejected from public property used for public events if lawfully armed, just because the property may be leased by a private entity.
What will happen is some folks will conceal to get in, then later discreetly switch to open carry (if legalized). If they get kicked out, they will then have standing to sue. Hopefully, the courts will come down with the correct decision in favor of carry rights on public property.
The Florida Legislature actually should have fixed this long ago with clear language in the preemption statute. Has anyone ever written their lawmakers about this? If so, what was the response?
Wow, a question in a thread that's been dormant for over six and a half years? Really? Your question probably would have been better placed in a more recent thread regarding the shenanigans in the latest legislative session on the latest Open Carry bills in the Florida House and Senate.Sorry for bringing up a thread long dead - however... next year it looks much brighter for Florida to get open carry passed.
That will surely push to the forefront and possibly bring to a head this long on-going issue of whether you can be excluded or ejected from public property used for public events if lawfully armed, just because the property may be leased by a private entity.
What will happen is some folks will conceal to get in, then later discreetly switch to open carry (if legalized). If they get kicked out, they will then have standing to sue. Hopefully, the courts will come down with the correct decision in favor of carry rights on public property.
The Florida Legislature actually should have fixed this long ago with clear language in the preemption statute. Has anyone ever written their lawmakers about this? If so, what was the response?
I will say that concealing to gain entry into a venue presumes they would be denied entry if they carried openly and in order for the authorities of that venue to deny entry, they would have to have legal authority to do so. Otherwise, why would a carrier of a concealed firearm need to change their mode of carrying after inside? If the law allows open carry there and they're denied entry, it would seem that would then become enough of a basis for taking up the issue in the courts and much less risk to the person becoming the test case. It would also avoid the very negative image for lawful carriers that would likely result from being intentionally deviant by concealing to gain entry and then openly carrying inside.
Are you a member of Florida Carry, the group lobbying for our 2A rights?
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
Florida Concealed Carry
A forum community dedicated to Florida’s concealed firearm owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about every day carry, optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Top Contributors this Month
View All
brownie
249 Replies
Anduril
109 Replies
Lautermilch
101 Replies
Recommended Communities
