Brownie, I'm not sure about #2 as you've stated it above. I don't think if I was approached by someone I knew was armed, such as a person walking up to me at the gas pumps with a knife in their hand, that I'm going to spend a single second trying to figure out what their motive is. It seems to me that I'd put your last quoted sentence into the #2 spot and leave figuring out the motive to police and prosecutors. Means, opportunity, and reasonable fear of death/GBH would be all I'm looking at to complete the firing circuit. Motive, not so much. How would I know the motive until they've acted?
Criteria necessary to use deadly force in SD
No matter what scenario one examples from the real world in a link here, or reads a scenario made for members to discuss options, there's some hard and fast rules for deadly force use.
1. They have to exhibit a means to cause death
2. They have to clearly have a motive to do great bodily harm or death upon your person
3. They have to have the opportunity to cause grave harm of death to you.
All the above with the lawful caveat the threat of grave bodily harm or death is IMMINENT.
In this recent thread https://www.floridaconcealedcarry.c...-lesson-in-conceal-carry.142089/#post-1990161
the lady who fired on the purse snatcher would NOT be able to articulate the above 3 criteria for deadly force use nor was she in IMMINENT danger of grave bodily harm.
One can play the semantics game all they like with what about this or that trying to find a way she was lawful in her discharging that firearm toward the thug, but she violated the law of deadly force use, plain and simple.
1. They have to exhibit a means to cause death
2. They have to clearly have a motive to do great bodily harm or death upon your person
3. They have to have the opportunity to cause grave harm of death to you.
All the above with the lawful caveat the threat of grave bodily harm or death is IMMINENT.
In this recent thread https://www.floridaconcealedcarry.c...-lesson-in-conceal-carry.142089/#post-1990161
the lady who fired on the purse snatcher would NOT be able to articulate the above 3 criteria for deadly force use nor was she in IMMINENT danger of grave bodily harm.
One can play the semantics game all they like with what about this or that trying to find a way she was lawful in her discharging that firearm toward the thug, but she violated the law of deadly force use, plain and simple.
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In neither scenario you pose do I have to articulate motive, I only have to articulate that the person posed a threat (they were holding a knife, who gives a rat's patoot why), they had opportunity (they were in close proximity and may/may not have responded to warnings that aren't required to be given by any law I'm aware of, and that, in summing up the circumstances in front of me, I'm in reasonable fear of GBH/death. Motive is irrelevant, because I can't know what his motive is.
If he's otw back to the store to return a knife and is foolish enough to walk up to me with a knife in his hand while I'm pumping gas, it's not on me to guess his mission. I agree taking the defensive steps you outlined (warnings, taking cover, etc.) are all good things that work in your favor after the fact, but I don't think those actions make or break the scenario in terms of valid self defense. I might not notice the knife holder until I have to act/not act, leaving no time for cover or warnings. All that's required of me is to articulate why my actions, in light of the circumstances, were justified in the eyes of a reasonable person.
I don't know anyone who thinks a person walking right up to you with a knife in their hand doesn't pose a threat. At some point, the person's stupid actions have to come into play in the big picture of things. Think here of a legal CCer who, when the cops show up, decides to draw his firearm in order to show the cops the gun he used in self defense... well, that's a stupid thing to do and could well result in death. It's not on the cops to figure out ahead of time he was just an honest Joe trying to help their investigation (i.e.- his motive), because to them it appeared no different than any other threat.
As Justice Holmes of the SCOTUS has said, “Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." So, come at me with a knife while I'm pumping gas and you won't get any detached reflection from me. I trust a panel of reasonable jurors to conclude the knife holder royally screwed up by not taking a better path back to the store.
If he's otw back to the store to return a knife and is foolish enough to walk up to me with a knife in his hand while I'm pumping gas, it's not on me to guess his mission. I agree taking the defensive steps you outlined (warnings, taking cover, etc.) are all good things that work in your favor after the fact, but I don't think those actions make or break the scenario in terms of valid self defense. I might not notice the knife holder until I have to act/not act, leaving no time for cover or warnings. All that's required of me is to articulate why my actions, in light of the circumstances, were justified in the eyes of a reasonable person.
I don't know anyone who thinks a person walking right up to you with a knife in their hand doesn't pose a threat. At some point, the person's stupid actions have to come into play in the big picture of things. Think here of a legal CCer who, when the cops show up, decides to draw his firearm in order to show the cops the gun he used in self defense... well, that's a stupid thing to do and could well result in death. It's not on the cops to figure out ahead of time he was just an honest Joe trying to help their investigation (i.e.- his motive), because to them it appeared no different than any other threat.
As Justice Holmes of the SCOTUS has said, “Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." So, come at me with a knife while I'm pumping gas and you won't get any detached reflection from me. I trust a panel of reasonable jurors to conclude the knife holder royally screwed up by not taking a better path back to the store.
Brownie, I think we're actually more in agreement here than out of it. Everything you've said makes good sense and I like to believe at least that if I had the presence of mind, I'd take similar steps to try and demonstrate I was backed into a self-defense corner, so to speak, before having to shoot. I also know that even the best laid plans don't always work out the way we hope they will, and it may be that we get dealt a crappy hand and we've no choice but to deal with it in whatever way we have to in order to stay above ground. I guess my tendency is to look at things in that way, as if all the "nice to have" things in a scenario just don't materialize and I'm left with the basics of live or die and not much else.Just saying, in my world, I'll make every effort to avoid having to shoot someone. Given any time to notice a potential threat, I'll take steps that will demonstrate I hesitated to shoot them until they left me no choice. And my decision will sit better with a jury of my peers for articulating the actions I took to avoid defending myself with a firearm. Along with demonstrating my mindset, that of a defender not anxious to pop someone but left no choice. It's prudent and will keep me well within the confines of deadly forces use even with some liberal/s on the jury who are anti gun.
Having had to use a firearm to defend myself more than once, I'm fully unprepared to do so once again until the 3 prongs are met in spades and I can prove/articulate the threat was imminent. What I don't want the jury to deliberate is whether I could have done something to prevent having to shoot them [ like verbal warnings to stay away, move off, etc ].
I really do like these scenario things, because I believe running several of these through one's noggin is helping mental preparation for a bad situation just as practicing reloads is physical preparation. So, thanks for bringing these things up. Even the ones I feel too inadequate, inexperienced, or inept to engage in the discussion, I learn something from.
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