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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Choice of Caliber
Bullets and Bull

Any gun, chambered for any caliber of bullet, is better than nothing in the horrific event that you are ever confronted by an assailant intent on inflicting bodily harm. The obvious thus stated, you will find that smaller, less effective calibers may not possess the capability of empowering their users with the means of taking control of a criminal encounter when the application of superior physical force is required. They may not provide the “stopping power” needed to deter a determined aggressor.

At worst, smaller caliber handguns may inspire a false sense of security in the mind of their owner, and let them down when most needed. At best, the same gun may defuse an attack because many criminals are thwarted by the mere presence of a firearm in the hands of the intended victim, often without a shot being fired.

Selection of a specific caliber for self defense is a function of a variety of factors, including ease of carry, portability, recoil tolerance of the shooter, and bullet performance.

Ideally, a caliber would be selected which is capable of penetrating deep into the core or vital area of an assailant’s body, without exiting. The benefit of this attribute is relatively easy to visualize. With too much penetration, a bullet will put a hole in the assailant, passing through the body. Still possessing considerable energy, the bullet will continue on its course until its energy is dissipated by collision with subsequent objects, or worse, with innocent bystanders. All the energy of the bullet, once it passes through the assailant’s body, is wasted.

Conversely, with not enough penetration potential, a bullet may get impeded by clothing and exterior tissue or bone, failing to disrupt the brain (computer) or the circulatory system (hydraulics). Such a shot might merely serve to further enrage one’s attacker.

In a manner similar to the fairy tale of the Three Bears, some rounds are “too hot”, some are “too cold” and some are “just right”. The ideal round for personal protection will dissipate all its energy within the core area of the assailant’s body. It will not exit to endanger others. Such a round will have the ability to penetrate from between ten and twelve to eighteen inches of human tissue.

When faced with an assailant, the purpose of your handgun and the cartridge it was chambered for is to protect you and your loved ones by “stopping” the aggression. A measurement of the cartridge’s ability to accomplish this is provided by real-world statistics which document actual street shootings, primarily by police in the line of duty.

The term “one shot stopping power” refers to a bullet’s ability to cause a criminal to immediately cease aggressive behavior when shot one time in the torso. It does not infer whether or not the criminal was instantly killed, was mortally wounded and died later, was wounded and recovered, or was psychologically as well as physiologically overcome and thus capitulated. It merely means threatening conduct ceased once the criminal was shot once.

To immediately stop an aggressor, it is necessary to disrupt the central nervous system, achievable by a shot into the brain, base of the skull, or upper spine in the neck area. Nervous system trauma will result in instantaneous loss of consciousness. Damaging the circulatory system of one’s attacker through a torso shot will result in gradual loss of consciousness, achieved by shock due to blood loss.

Effective wounding of an attacker, therefore, is a function of shot placement, which produces the path of the bullet through the body, and penetration, which determines which critical and non-critical tissues are disrupted. Critical tissues include the central nervous system and cardiovascular organs and vessels vital to the assailant’s immediate survival. Rapid hemorrhage deprives the brain of oxygenated blood required for consciousness.

Use of deadly force as a means of stopping aggression requires that, at a minimum, a person be in fear of losing their own life. Laws vary among states, so it is important for a person to ascertain what constitutes legal use of deadly force in their particular jurisdiction. This should be one of the initial activities conducted by a person who elects to purchase a firearm for self defense.

Some states expand the right of personal defense to include one’s family, and other states include strangers in danger as well. Be prudent. Remember, your objective is to cause the assailant to desist in their aggressive behavior by the effective application of superior force on your part. There is no legal justification for a “coup de grace”. Likewise, a shot into the back of a fleeing attacker will be frowned upon in a court of law. Don’t be a peasant. Do your legal and statutory research.

With either a revolver or an autoloader, sufficient ammunition is held in reserve to counter multiple threats, or to disable a criminal who, though wounded, continues their aggressive behavior. Keep shooting vital areas until you have dissipated or terminated the threat.

Conventional wisdom with regard to handgun selection suggests that an individual purchase the largest caliber that can be handled comfortably and accurately. Many advise that the minimum caliber for self protection be at least .38 Special in a revolver and 9 mm in an autoloader. These two calibers are currently the most popular rounds in the United States for self defense. Ballisticaly, they are somewhat similar, with the 9mm having the edge in terms of performance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Brownie..actually all this info is on my website but thought I would put it up here for all the members to read..Just posted another thread but on Ammo not caliber....might make some think about carrying these little .380's, 32 and 25 calibers..just because they are comfortable..
 

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Excellent post. As previous threads have dealt with over penetration, fight stopping and the on-going argument concerning caliber and ammo type, I will refrain from making any recommendations here. Instead let me recount an anecdotal tale from by-gone days.

A couple of decades ago, a local law enforcement officer was pursuing a suspect, on foot. As he came around a corner, the suspect shot him in the left pectoral muscle with a .25 acp automatic. The LEO was 6'2" tall and weighted 220 lbs. Being a macho weightlifter and bodybuilder, he declined to wear a bullet resistant vest. The bullet penetrated the muscle and lodged against a rib, without breaking it. The suspect turned and ran. The LEO, enraged that the little slime ball had the audacity to shoot at him, quickly chased him down, tackled him and proceeded to robustly pummel him about the head and shoulders. Responding officers noticed that the front of the LEO's shirt had a large red stain on the front. He was driven to the hospital, where the bullet was removed with local anesthetic. The LEO was back at work, on light duty, the next day and on full duty in six. He had not even realized that he had been shot, until the blood was pointed out to him.

The point of the story is: use a large enough caliber to put down your target quickly, or learn to run really, really fast.
 

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Mac45,

Another anecdotal tale from by-gone days. I'm in a biker bar about 1987-88 working a UC detail around 10pm when the doorman tells a member of another rival gang he's not getting in.

The lone rival biker pulls a .25cal semi auto and shoots the doorman in the chest once. The doorman is not a big dude, but no slouch at maybe 6'2" 200 pounds. He looks down at his chest, falls straight down and slumps to the floor.

The rival biker runs out with several bikers chasing him down the street. All hell breaks loose in the bar, guns are pulled everywhere and a few hover around the fallen doorman as if to protect him somehow.

He's dead in less than 90 seconds. Bullet cut the aorta and he bled out internally. Never spoke a word to anyone as he collapsed or while on the floor and never moved once he hit the deck.

Another anecdotal tale, this time with a gov 45acp and ball ammo:

Boston cop and myself are looking for this rasta in Roxbury. We approach a triple decker in a not so pleasant part of that section of the city. Cop knocks on the door announces his position and presence.

BANG!!, 45acp ball hits him in the chest, traverses his body and exits out the right cheek of his butt. He's down, but not out. Keys his shoulder mike for assistance, officer down and location as I'm pulling him off to the side out of the doorway on the porch as I've got the gun drawn on the door in case the rasta wants to open it and continue.

No further action from inside, units arrive and he's transported to Mass General, only about 4 miles from the scene. He lives and retires with permanent disability. The Rasta hoofed it out the back window and was gone after the shot apparently.

Brownie
 

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So Brownie,

I guess your point is that a .25 or a .45 will put you out of the fight with one shot. Right?
 

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So Brownie,

I guess your point is that a .25 or a .45 will put you out of the fight with one shot. Right?
No sir, I only related two instances of differing calibers where the smaller caliber used was almost instantly fatal and the larger caliber was survivable.

In another instance I'm aware of that was related to me, a Tenn dep sheriff shot a perp 5 times square in the chest with a 357 magnum at near contact range and the perp then ran over 200 yds before he collapsed and died.

By relating these actual instances of instant incapacitation by smaller caliber and not so instant incapacitation or death with what most might consider sufficient on the street, we should be able to state empirically that there is no telling what caliber will be effective or ineffective at stopping anyone as every caliber has killed and has failed to stop perps.

I don't think that anything in the related stories should be construed as support to carry the sub calibers or not carry what many consider sufficient calibers or that we can rely on any pistol bullet caliber to incapacitate with one or even two rds delivered COM.

The sub calibers aren't my first choice, are never a primary carry choice and are probably less effective than the larger calibers most of the time. I don't believe any load I carry can be relied on to put the threat down quickly, but I hope by choosing a bullet/caliber combination based on street results, I need less and not more to put the threat down as fast as possible.

I didn't mean to suggest any caliber could be relied on for a one shot stop. My apologies if that was the idea taken from the related instances.

Brownie
 

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Sorry to be so long in responding, but I was busy. There was a point to this thread and it was that bigger is better and that shot placement is still important.

Now, we can tell anecdotal stories of people getting hit with a .22 and dropping like a stone as well as people taking three rounds of 00 buck 12 ga to the chest at near point blank range before going down and still surviving. Both are unlikely, but they have occurred in real life. They mean nothing unless there is a point to them.

My point was in keeping with Swamprat's, that sub-caliber rounds are not a good choice for self defense. You can kill someone with a pencil, they are small and easy to carry around. You can do the same with a baseball bat, even though they are larger and more cumbersome. Yet, if we were limited to a pencil or a baseball bat for a defensive weapon, who among us would choose the pencil over the bat to confront an intruder into our homes?

In the choice of a defensive handgun, just as in the rest of your life, common sense should prevail. Due to legal constraints, a carry weapon has to be concealable upon your person. Yet, that does not mean that a person should sacrifice "stopping power" for concealability. As we still have free will, we can make any choices that we wish. Some are good and some are bad.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Mac..good post..Brownie and I were talking about this yesterday which prompted my post on here..What I have been seeing is there are more and more people picking a caliber and size that fits there current way of dressing instead of learning how to dress around the gun. In turn they choose small caliber, low capacity firearms that are comfortable and fit with their current wardrobe..I tell all my students that in my opinion, a 9mm is as small as I would ever carry. A lot of people take issue with that, mostly those who carry smaller caliber firearms that they can slip in the front pocket or wear in one of those smart carry's...good luck accessing from one those things in a firefight ..

After carrying a full size 1911 for the last 30+ years and even a Para 14-45 double stack 1911 for a couple years, I also carried a Browning 9mm and currently change off between my M&P 9 and my DW 1911. I dress around the firearm I carry. Always have. Its not comfortable but comforting..Some think its over the top and dont see the need for hi-caps or big heavy 45's..I won't take the chance..BTDT..Hell my backup or pocket pistol was PT145 10+1 and have never carried less.

I have nothing against smaller firearms i.e. 5 shot airweight revolvers, LCP's, Kel-tec's etc but it would only get carried alongside a larger hi-cap firearm..Yeah yeah yeah, I know we live in Florida where everyone dresses like their a Parrot head..shorts, t-shirts, flip flops etc..good for them..I can still carry a 1911 with that mode of dress...No I am not a big man..5'10" on a good day...but I still carry a baseball bat rather than a pencil..:D
 

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I'll take it one step further. My personal choice is to carry nothing smaller than a compact gun chambered in nothing smaller than 9mm. I will not carry a subcompact firearm. The simple reason behind this that the subcompact firearm increase my draw speed time because it takes longer to acquire a firm secure grip when drawing from under a cover shirt. With the full size and compact weapon I can get a good grip fast and be weapon on threat quickly. I make the sacrifice and dress around the gun and surprisingly have not run into a problem yet.
 

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Swamprat,

I agree. As this is a forum dedicated to the carry and use of defensive firearms, I think that these discussions have merit. People base their decision on what type, caliber, make and model of defensive handgun to buy based upon a variety of factors; hand size, concealability, financial condition and ability to handle felt recoil, among others. I would never dissuade a person from carrying a small caliber handgun, if that was all that they had access to or could handle. But, I would strongly suggest that they carry a large caliber[.38spl, 9mm, 40 cal, .41, .44spl or .45acp]and a high capacity firearm if at all possible. Quality tools, combined with training, practice and experience, can produce a much more desirable result.
 

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Great post. Here's another view, I tend choose guns that I like to shoot and can shoot well. I have pretty much limited myself to .380, 9mm, .40 and .45 for calibers. I carry a subcompact 9mm because I can shoot it very well and I have confidence with what I can do with it. It's a compromise between, weight/size, capacity, ability and power and for me and the guns that I have my 9mm G26 has the right balance of those attributes. My wife on the other hand likes to carry our full size M&P .40 which to me is just a tad too heavy for what I am comfortable with - and I've got a good 60-70 pounds on her and plenty of "area" to carry a larger weapon, lol. More power to her I say. Carry what you are comfortable with and what is appropriate for the job at hand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Vital organs and cardiovascular structures reside deep within the human body. Hence, in addition to proper shot placement, one must possess a caliber of bullet capable of reaching them. Under favorable conditions, 6 to 8 inches of penetration will incapacitate an assailant. As a degree of insurance, the bullet should be capable of plowing through tissue into the attacker’s bodily core from any angle of engagement, considering that vitals may be obstructed by an arm, extremely heavy clothing, or large body mass.
That was taken from my other piece on Ammo selection..This is critical to self defense..Penetration along with caliber and capacity determines my choice of self defense handgun..I will always carry with expectations of multiple bad guys.. http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=3471
 

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Mac45,

Another anecdotal tale from by-gone days. I'm in a biker bar about 1987-88 working a UC detail around 10pm when the doorman tells a member of another rival gang he's not getting in.

The lone rival biker pulls a .25cal semi auto and shoots the doorman in the chest once. The doorman is not a big dude, but no slouch at maybe 6'2" 200 pounds. He looks down at his chest, falls straight down and slumps to the floor.

The rival biker runs out with several bikers chasing him down the street. All hell breaks loose in the bar, guns are pulled everywhere and a few hover around the fallen doorman as if to protect him somehow.

He's dead in less than 90 seconds. Bullet cut the aorta and he bled out internally. Never spoke a word to anyone as he collapsed or while on the floor and never moved once he hit the deck.

Another anecdotal tale, this time with a gov 45acp and ball ammo:

Boston cop and myself are looking for this rasta in Roxbury. We approach a triple decker in a not so pleasant part of that section of the city. Cop knocks on the door announces his position and presence.

BANG!!, 45acp ball hits him in the chest, traverses his body and exits out the right cheek of his butt. He's down, but not out. Keys his shoulder mike for assistance, officer down and location as I'm pulling him off to the side out of the doorway on the porch as I've got the gun drawn on the door in case the rasta wants to open it and continue.

No further action from inside, units arrive and he's transported to Mass General, only about 4 miles from the scene. He lives and retires with permanent disability. The Rasta hoofed it out the back window and was gone after the shot apparently.

Brownie
Dang Brownie
That is a TERRIBLE STORY!
I am carry at .45 for the "knockdown/stopping power"...so I thought. I am happily going to the range every week. I "kill" a lot of paper. I also read Swamprat's response to another member about a two day course you are leading/instructing this September. It would be a privilege to attend and I plan on locating that link and inquiring. Sadly, the economy has really hurt me and money (cash) is a rare commodity (at least keeping it!). I'd love to take your longer course but the well earned rate you are charging is more than I can handle right now.
Anyway, thank you for all your great feedback, instruction and stories.
Gratefully
Franklin
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

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Any caliber can kill, however the object is not to kill but rather to stop the threat. Some Calibers have proven themselves to do this more reliably than others and the best calibers are still poor fight stoppers so why handicap yourself with a sub standard cartridge choice?

I've never met a single person that was truly comfortable with a "mouse" gun when true danger knocked on the door.
 

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Any caliber can kill, however the object is not to kill but rather to stop the threat. Some Calibers have proven themselves to do this more reliably than others and the best calibers are still poor fight stoppers so why handicap yourself with a sub standard cartridge choice?

I've never met a single person that was truly comfortable with a "mouse" gun when true danger knocked on the door.[/QUOTE]

Very succinct and spot on post sir :thumsup

Brownie
 

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I've never met a single person that was truly comfortable with a "mouse" gun when true danger knocked on the door.
Perhaps true... but I am way more comfortable with a mouse gun than standing butt naked and empty handed having just been awakened from sleep!

I have said many times before in this forum that I carry a NAA .22WMR quite often. Many times the choice is either the mouse gun or nothing.

For example, on my days off from the FD, I do repair work on yachts (well used to before the crash anyhow). In the course of that work, I have to wiggle into all sorts of tight spots to complete the work; anything bigger than a mouse gun in my front pocket is in the way, and would need to be taken off prior to the work.... A lot of good it does me locked in the truck when I am 1/4 mile down a pier! I just spent a week trimming trees around my SRQ property... I was using a brush chipper every day. It would have been pure madness to have a loose overhanging garment on. On many days, I am shirtless, wearing shorts while working on a boat or in the yard.... should I just leave the gun home?

I submit: A professional mechanic in his shop would never use pliers on a bolt, but will likely choose the correct wrench from his toolbox. When he is 12 miles out in the Gulf with nothing more than a screwdriver and a pair of pliers, guess what he is going to use???

I PREFER to carry a G26 over the NAA mouse..... I PREFER the NAA mouse to an empty hand!
 
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