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If we're talking about the same FoF drill, I was next up and watched yours go down, err actually watched Paula go down as you uttered your pre-arranged code word for Paula's response for just that type of hostage situation, exposing brownie as she turned into a sack of potatoes. 👍

On my turn, brownie had Artemis as the hostage and holding his head close to hers exposing only the side of his [airsoft masked] face, but with the slight movement of the two of them as the hostage taker danced around slightly to intimidate the would-be rescue attempt by me. I didn't feel I had a clear shot and backed away out of sight behind the black plastic faux "cover," sad that I couldn't save the hostage. 😒 However, both brownie and EBL were right there giving me assurances that I'd made the right decision; I'd never be able to live with myself in reality if I'd taken out the hostage instead of the hostage taker!

ETA: Like Rick, I also remember it was Steve (Live2Wheel) that got your hand/arm. :unsure:
😂 He put the mask on after I shot him, and after a couple more runs; he had himself pretty well covered up. I remember pasting his arm up with New Skin after someone got him there.

Brownie’s always been up for whatever it takes to make his classes the very best training for his students that they can be!
 

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I did shoot an idpa hostage taker in the neck through the shoulder of the hostage...I yelled "sorry, but your the one who got caught "..the rso called a penalty and a hit then halved the penalty because I apologized before I took the shot...I didn't feel comfortable taking a head shot with so little showing next to the hostage head...
Well, as a long time IDPA SO; that’s a rule I never heard of. 👍
 

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I know you're just joshing for Kim's sake, but I was taking the training seriously as if it were the real deal and if I'd taken out the hostage with an erroneous first shot, nothing else would have mattered. . .game over!
I’m glad you didn’t!
Came home with enough bruises that weekend as it was. Great way to learn not to make the same mistakes twice
 

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Well, as a long time IDPA SO; that’s a rule I never heard of. 👍
you have to understand the relationship i have with fellow shooters and my willingness to try unconventional methods when lives dont count...it makes for some interesting and fun moments on the range...ive had very competitive shooters ask me how i am going to shoot a scenario just for ideas...in most cases what to stay away from...:sneaky:
 

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Different terminology than I was taught. Cover is hard that affords protection, what you define as soft cover was taught as concealment.

Interesting, the variations of terminology.
Sorry, sometimes I forget to be clear, especially considering my audience.

Concealment often makes use of cover and it's the easiest way to drop\hide from sight, not including modern technologies. It's why I talked about dropping under the table and it being soft cover. It's primary purpose is concealment from the active shooter but not to expect it to stop bullets.

You don't need cover to be concealed, a ghillie suit\camouflage, lack of movement..

Human beings, even trained soldiers, often see what they\we want to see.

The Apaches are the best well known Native American tribe for being able to 'hide in plain sight'.

Grass, weeds, shrubs used appropriately can help obscure ones movement. They provide visual 'cover', but obviously won't stop a bullet.

I remember distinctly the discussions on cover and their uses. One of my DIs said that all cover is soft to an RPG. There is also nothing so disconcerting as thinking you are behind 'hard' cover when it isn't.

If the terms soft\hard weren't used, then how do you define 'cover that will stop a small arms bullet'?
 

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Bolded is usually defined as "concealment" with no protection from taking incoming fire, while the term "cover" infers some protection from incoming fire. 🤠
I agree with you, but it was made more granular than that for\to us.

1) Concealment is not being seen.
2) Physical objects can conceal.
3) Some of those physical objects will stop projectiles\, others may slow or deflect
4) Some of those physical objects will not stop, slow or deflect

We went thru a series of exercises of different materials: soft, medium(slow or deflect), hard (stop).

Their effects on various caliber\grain bullets and explosives or lack there of.
 

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The BG had both a PC with at least soft plates AND a ballistic helmet in addition to a rifle. Suggest a deltoid shot, pelvic shot or neck. Seriously consider making a rifle available for yourself.
 

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While I'm not entirely confident in my accuracy at 30-40 feet, I often run through scenarios such as this in my head. I carry a G19 with a backup magazine and my thought process is that if I encounter a BG firing in a store and I'm caught in the open that I would open fire rapidly as I move backwards toward the nearest cover - in effect, catch the BG off guard (hopefully) and establish fire superiority for a crucial few seconds as I beat a hasty retreat. Someone said the gunman's actions in Buffalo mimicked video games, but in video games there is no one returning fire, which I suspect significantly alters the BG's disposition. I can dump 15 rounds and have an additional 15 once I reach cover -- assuming I do. Realistic, or am I dreaming here?
 

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While I'm not entirely confident in my accuracy at 30-40 feet, I often run through scenarios such as this in my head. I carry a G19 with a backup magazine and my thought process is that if I encounter a BG firing in a store and I'm caught in the open that I would open fire rapidly as I move backwards toward the nearest cover - in effect, catch the BG off guard (hopefully) and establish fire superiority for a crucial few seconds as I beat a hasty retreat. Someone said the gunman's actions in Buffalo mimicked video games, but in video games there is no one returning fire, which I suspect significantly alters the BG's disposition. I can dump 15 rounds and have an additional 15 once I reach cover -- assuming I do. Realistic, or am I dreaming here?
'Fight or Flight' is endemic to the human condition. adrenaline(increased speed, strength), endorphins to mask pain, etc.

When we were wielding bones and branches as clubs and spears, that was a good thing.

With shooting a gun, not so much. It's a visible effect: breath control problems (muzzle movement), pulling the trigger (increased strength, lack of sensitivity - muzzle movement). This is just the physical affects, the emotions and lack of alertness can literally make you stupid.

We choose to carry because we want the chance to stay alive or save the lives of others and have that chance be something within our control.

If you haven't, take some training classes with qualified instructors.

You said it yourself, but I'll re-enforce it. The biggest difference between a video game and real life is that there is no restart button or save scumming.
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
While I'm not entirely confident in my accuracy at 30-40 feet, I often run through scenarios such as this in my head. I carry a G19 with a backup magazine and my thought process is that if I encounter a BG firing in a store and I'm caught in the open that I would open fire rapidly as I move backwards toward the nearest cover - in effect, catch the BG off guard (hopefully) and establish fire superiority for a crucial few seconds as I beat a hasty retreat. Someone said the gunman's actions in Buffalo mimicked video games, but in video games there is no one returning fire, which I suspect significantly alters the BG's disposition. I can dump 15 rounds and have an additional 15 once I reach cover -- assuming I do. Realistic, or am I dreaming here?
There's a way to become confident. I'm not backpedaling, quickest way to trip and fall over something/someone trying to escape the carnage as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
'Fight or Flight' is endemic to the human condition. adrenaline(increased speed, strength), endorphins to mask pain, etc.

When we were wielding bones and branches as clubs and spears, that was a good thing.

With shooting a gun, not so much. It's a visible effect: breath control problems (muzzle movement), pulling the trigger (increased strength, lack of sensitivity - muzzle movement). This is just the physical affects, the emotions and lack of alertness can literally make you stupid.

We choose to carry because we want the chance to stay alive or save the lives of others and have that chance be something within our control.

If you haven't, take some training classes with qualified instructors.

You said it yourself, but I'll re-enforce it. The biggest difference between a video game and real life is that there is no restart button or save scumming.
Yup, fight or flight, most haven't trained enough to take the fight to the offending party goer LOL
 

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Yup, fight or flight, most haven't trained enough to take the fight to the offending party goer LOL
the human condition:
freeze, flight or fight...freezing is the deadliest of all...there is no shame in flight if the opportunity is available...bringing the fight to them may be the only option and if you do it's as though it's the only thing in the world that matters...because in all reality...it is...and must be brutal resulting in actions that would disgust and sicken most...because your life depends on it...

that's how my training for active assailant situations opens with my students...along with improvised weapons and tactics...it also helps instill the fear of God into them when it comes to my capabilities and whether they want to push me or not...quote from one of my students..."Mr V, I feel like you could suck the breath out of someone with no remorse."...my reply..."makes you wonder who would ever want to know if that's true."...
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
921 views, 13 members replied out of 14.4K members.

As I expected, very few will participate in a thread like this and IMO, it's very telling that most here won't respond as they don't have a clue what they would do based on lack of training, lack of confidence in the ability to respond to something like this scenario based on lack of actual skills.

I, as well as many here, throw up scenarios like this [ many based on real world events like this one ] and it's always been the same responses. Very few members participating in their opinions on how to respond. Obviously they have opinions, but it seems far too many here won't express their opinions on how they'd respond or even if they could respond at all [ and most carry a handgun at least some of the time, and all members are likely to be in public at some point at some location where they could get caught up in a meat grinder like this scenario.

Obviously some don't have a clue how they could respond, what they might be capable of in any response if they'd respond at all or just wither and die on the vine like they didn't have a firearm on them at all in these scenario based threads. I get it, some will sit back and read others responses, maybe taking some tactical ideas from others, but perhaps lacking actual skills where they don't have faith in their ability to survive a meat grinder like this scenario.

Back in the early days of this forum, scenario based threads like this one would have brought multiple dozens of responses. IOW, more participation. BUT, throw up any current political issue, dozens join in with their opinions.

It's very telling where this forum as moved to and away from. It's the "new" political forum where many members just happen to own/carry a firearm. This forum wasn't created to discuss political world issues, it was created to discuss gun related subjects 😢
 

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921 views, 13 members replied out of 14.4K members.
Back in the early days of this forum, scenario based threads like this one would have brought multiple dozens of responses. IOW, more participation. BUT, throw up any current political issue, dozens join in with their opinions.

It's very telling where this forum as moved to and away from. It's the "new" political forum where many members just happen to own/carry a firearm. This forum wasn't created to discuss political world issues, it was created to discuss gun related subjects 😢
and the discussions would be spirited with differing opinions and growth...
 

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I get it, some will sit back and read others responses, maybe taking some tactical ideas from others, but perhaps lacking actual skills...
My career path differs from those of you whom are either current or former military and/or LEO, so it stands to reason my training and situational preparedness would pale (by orders of magnitude) in comparison to yours.

Due to family and career responsibilities, my "spare" time is minimal and doesn't allow me much in the way of self defense or tactical training. Not my druthers, but it is what it is.

So yes, I read, evaluate, and most importantly learn from you in threads such as this - and remain silent when I have nothing substantive to offer. I do not consider that a bad thing, but rather an expression of respect for your collective and individual experience, service, knowledge, and skills.

And I (appreciatively) learn what I can from you.
 
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