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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Based on the latest thread on the shooter in Buffalo, NY, lets find out what others think their response would be.

1. Gunman opens fire on public at large
2. You have no cover available within 15 feet. You could be in an aisle at the grocery store, 15 feet out the door of a retail store [ where it's 15 feet back inside or 15 feet to the nearest parked vehicle ]; or you're in a conference room with nothing but tables and chairs when someone walks in and opens fire on people in the room
3. You're armed with your edc, which may well be loaded with just 8-9 rounds, but you have a spare mag on you.

Caught in the open, IYO, what's your best chance of surviving before the perp trains that gun on you. Taking into account any infirmaries [ walker/cane/wheelchair/scooter, bad knee/s, etc ].

What's your honest opinion of being able to thread the needle while people are scurrying for safety and being taken out while they try to escape the scene, place COM shots or head shots on a perp that's 30-40 feet from your location at the start of the party he's started.

What's your strategy for your best chance at surviving such an event [ and they are happening often enough to become a real life scenario you could find yourself in ].

Does the gun you carry daily, in your hands, have the ability to make precision shots on demand at 30 feet? 40 feet without hesitation?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
I can safely assume calling "911" is incorrect.
911 call isn't so much incorrect, but will someone actually stand there dialing 911 while people are being targeted.

Is that the best course of action when time is of the essence to stop the threat before one takes rounds?, something to consider.

More importantly perhaps, can that armed person rise to the level of accuracy required to make the shots reliably to begin with. Many here, I'm sure, know their limited prowess with a handgun when precision shots need to be taken. As an example

Back one year on the Volsusia range pistol course, I set up 3 targets, two in front of the BG to either side where there was a 6" wide area to thread the needle and make a shot on the BG. The students had all the time they wanted to take the shot [ not something you'd enjoy in a real world event about to be taken out ]. 20 students, only two were able to thread the round in between those two innocents and make a hit on the BG. That's very telling, and most of the students were quite unhappy with their performance. Many believed given they had the time to make the shot, they would make it, but they didn't make it.

Then a few asked me to show them how I'd do. Okay, one shot in under 1 second [ no drawing, just starting with the gun in hand ] that hit the BG and missed the innocents.

People sometimes have a rather forgiving idea of their prowess with a handgun to make precision shots [ and particularly threading the needle past innocents ]. The results were rather astonishing to most where they shot an innocent not the BG.

Now, that brings us to the notion I have, based on 15 years of training others, that most wouldn't feel they could reliably make that shot without a large chance of hitting an innocent, and thus wouldn't take the shot. Hesitation, lack of knowledge they can make the shot reliably, will have people running and the higher chances of dying for their efforts to extricate the area. That may be all they can do, based on a lack of training, lack of knowing their actual skills as they've never been tasked with such in training.

Most know their limitations. It's my impression there'd be damned few who have the skill, the confidence to make that shot and would actually take the shot. An affirmative defense is the best defense when caught in the open.

Most members who read the initial post won't respond, simply because they don't think they have the skills to engage in an event like that to begin with. Training in real world events using Fof or drills like the one I described above with give someone an idea of just what they are or aren't capable of. Those who've not been tested like that, don't know how they'd do, so they'll likely do nothing but flee and hope for the best
 

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15 feet seems like a very short distance to traverse. I'll bet that most people's realization/evaluation/reaction/response time, however, at least equals the time it would take them to physically cover the 15 foot distance. The stated 15 feet then becomes an effective 30 feet or more. And THAT has me carefully thinking this scenario through.
 

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Based on the latest thread on the shooter in Buffalo, NY, lets find out what others think their response would be.

1. Gunman opens fire on public at large
2. You have no cover available within 15 feet. You could be in an aisle at the grocery store, 15 feet out the door of a retail store [ where it's 15 feet back inside or 15 feet to the nearest parked vehicle ]; or you're in a conference room with nothing but tables and chairs when someone walks in and opens fire on people in the room
3. You're armed with your edc, which may well be loaded with just 8-9 rounds, but you have a spare mag on you.

Caught in the open, IYO, what's your best chance of surviving before the perp trains that gun on you. Taking into account any infirmaries [ walker/cane/wheelchair/scooter, bad knee/s, etc ].

What's your honest opinion of being able to thread the needle while people are scurrying for safety and being taken out while they try to escape the scene, place COM shots or head shots on a perp that's 30-40 feet from your location at the start of the party he's started.

What's your strategy for your best chance at surviving such an event [ and they are happening often enough to become a real life scenario you could find yourself in ].

Does the gun you carry daily, in your hands, have the ability to make precision shots on demand at 30 feet? 40 feet without hesitation?
One of the benefits of the threat-focused shooting you taught me is that it allows me a greater field of view of things between me and the target, reducing tunnel vision and allowing much greater ability in "threading the needle". I feel good about being able to do it during the real deal.

My nowhere to go, nowhere to find cover and have to get it done right now scenario in is my synagogue. If I'm standing on the bimah, I'm twenty-two yards from the corner a shooter will most likely have to come around to open fire on our congregation during services. If I'm seated in the congregation at my preferred seat, I'm half that distance. If he comes through the other entrance, I'm much closer.

The only mag dumps I do anymore are on the TDI silhouette from twenty-two yards. Misses are extremely rare.

As far as my chances against an active shooter in such a situation, it depends. I have a fast, surreptitious draw stroke. If I can get my muzzle on him before he sees it coming, I like my chances.
 

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911 call isn't so much incorrect, but will someone actually stand there dialing 911 while people are being targeted.

Is that the best course of action when time is of the essence to stop the threat before one takes rounds?, something to consider.

More importantly perhaps, can that armed person rise to the level of accuracy required to make the shots reliably to begin with. Many here, I'm sure, know their limited prowess with a handgun when precision shots need to be taken. As an example

Back one year on the Volsusia range pistol course, I set up 3 targets, two in front of the BG to either side where there was a 6" wide area to thread the needle and make a shot on the BG. The students had all the time they wanted to take the shot [ not something you'd enjoy in a real world event about to be taken out ]. 20 students, only two were able to thread the round in between those two innocents and make a hit on the BG. That's very telling, and most of the students were quite unhappy with their performance. Many believed given they had the time to make the shot, they would make it, but they didn't make it.

Then a few asked me to show them how I'd do. Okay, one shot in under 1 second [ no drawing, just starting with the gun in hand ] that hit the BG and missed the innocents.

People sometimes have a rather forgiving idea of their prowess with a handgun to make precision shots [ and particularly threading the needle past innocents ]. The results were rather astonishing to most where they shot an innocent not the BG.

Now, that brings us to the notion I have, based on 15 years of training others, that most wouldn't feel they could reliably make that shot without a large chance of hitting an innocent, and thus wouldn't take the shot. Hesitation, lack of knowledge they can make the shot reliably, will have people running and the higher chances of dying for their efforts to extricate the area. That may be all they can do, based on a lack of training, lack of knowing their actual skills as they've never been tasked with such in training.

Most know their limitations. It's my impression there'd be damned few who have the skill, the confidence to make that shot and would actually take the shot. An affirmative defense is the best defense when caught in the open.

Most members who read the initial post won't respond, simply because they don't think they have the skills to engage in an event like that to begin with. Training in real world events using Fof or drills like the one I described above with give someone an idea of just what they are or aren't capable of. Those who've not been tested like that, don't know how they'd do, so they'll likely do nothing but flee and hope for the best
The drill you described prompted me to spend a lot more practice time dedicated to precision shots. I honestly don't recall whether I was one of the two, or one of the eighteen. Either way, I found the exercise worthwhile enough to improve my precision shooting accordingly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Shoot back or wait your turn...
Or hope you're a lucky one that gets bypassed, can run somewhere to cover fast enough to extricate yourself. I've never been a proponent of wait and see, if I had been, I probably wouldn't have sought the various training venues in the quest to be have the best chance at surviving a meat grinder event.

It's paid off in the real world, can't put a price on that. If cover is a step or two at the most away, likely just be an instinctive move to do so. If caught in the open, with no cover within a few steps at the most, there's choices to make.

I shot so many steel plate shoots at 33 feet [ head shots ] 6 in a row on a rack, that I know if I can get the end of my muzzle on the perps chin, it's over. People who have the training know what I'm talking about here. At 33 feet, my first shot from surrender position in the matches averaged .90 seconds. Today, maybe 1.2 seconds to that shot if it's available from surrender.

Those years of shooting head shot size steel plates where speed was fine but you had to make the hits or you'd lose to a slower shooter making his, refined that skill exponentially.

Your rather succinct reply above really says it all for me.
 

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15 feet is a short distance to cover and moving fast without delay gives one an advantage against a shooter who may not be able to place a clean shot on a rapidly moving target...and possible as fast as I can draw and come to target at distance...

No place to go caught in the open i would take the shot in a heartbeat...I never turned down one of brownies challenges because they were an opportunity to test myself without a consequence...I have no pride to shatter...
 

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Well, I can't run and I can't fight so I would probably try to shoot the killer. This is really a hard one to answer because I have been in situations where you just react and not really have the time to plan or think.
I'm still alive and at times I just can't figure how.
I have seen some very well trained men actually freeze up in some situations. They were not coward's or sissy's.
I do think I know what I would do, but until the times comes ❓ ❓ ❓ ❓ ❓ ❓ ❓ ❓
Ronnie

PS:
Thanks Brownie, You just made me fry my old brain.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If this is based off the recent event than you left out the fact he’s wearing body armor. This is the reason the retired leo who was a security guard died.
I would see the first hits had no affect, and move to the head shot, if I didn't go head shot to begin with [ but that would be based on distances past about 10 yrds which is quite a distance in a street encounter.

Until there's definitive proof he actually took rounds which I've not seen presented to date, I question two things.

1. Why didn't he go to failure to stop drill instantly upon realizing his shots [ if they were hitting ] weren't affecting him. He may not have had time once he realized that and took hits himself. Or he likely didn't think to make head shots upon failure to stop COM hits
2. He may not have known whether he was missing or hitting COM, so he kept shooting till he was taken out.

How many shots did the former leo fire total? Anyone got a number reported, or a number of hits vs shots fired by him on the perp?

Through the National Tactical Invitational week long entry competitions, I learned I forgot to make the failure to stop head shot and it cost me several positions for the week. I learned through training, one can forget to go to head shots in the heat of trying to put that teddy tactical [ BG down ] and run to empty all too quickly. lol

As I've been through the mistake under stress of the timer, it's not something I'll repeat on the streets imo. I wonder if he made the same mistake, it wouldn't surprise me one bit
 

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If this is based off the recent event than you left out the fact he’s wearing body armor. This is the reason the retired leo who was a security guard died.
I only take head shots when hostages or others are close at hand.
I’ve always trained that way 100% of the time.
It works; because that’s exactly where I shot Brownie when he had Paula (my wife; for the newbies) as a hostage during the FoF training.

I really believe that you’ll function as you’ve trained if the crap ever hits the fan on you. So; no training… good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I only take head shots when hostages or others are close at hand.
I’ve always trained that way 100% of the time.
It works; because that’s exactly where I shot Brownie when he had Paula (my wife; for the newbies) as a hostage during the FoF training.

I really believe that you’ll function as you’ve trained if the crap ever hits the fan on you. So; no training… good luck.
You opened the back of my hand up pretty good from about 15 feet from that doorway. My hand was holding her by the chin just off center enough for you to catch it making a head shot on me. Would have likely eaten a real bullet through the hand :eek:
 

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I would see the first hits had no affect, and move to the head shot, if I didn't go head shot to begin with [ but that would be based on distances past about 10 yrds which is quite a distance in a street encounter.

Until there's definitive proof he actually took rounds which I've not seen presented to date, I question two things.

1. Why didn't he go to failure to stop drill instantly upon realizing his shots [ if they were hitting ] weren't affecting him. He may not have had time once he realized that and took hits himself. Or he likely didn't think to make head shots upon failure to stop COM hits
2. He may not have known whether he was missing or hitting COM, so he kept shooting till he was taken out.

How many shots did the former leo fire total? Anyone got a number reported, or a number of hits vs shots fired by him on the perp?

Through the National Tactical Invitational week long entry competitions, I learned I forgot to make the failure to stop head shot and it cost me several positions for the week. I learned through training, one can forget to go to head shots in the heat of trying to put that teddy tactical [ BG down ] and run to empty all too quickly. lol

As I've been through the mistake under stress of the timer, it's not something I'll repeat on the streets imo. I wonder if he made the same mistake, it wouldn't surprise me one bit
I've watched the video, and it is apparent to me that the killer spent serious hours on first person shooter games. He was hitting targets as soon as they came into view, multiple shots to each victim with fast finishing shots after they were down. He went through a thirty round mag in twenty-two seconds, quickly reloaded, applied another finishing shot, and then quickly dispatched who I believe was the security guard. The video was muddled at that particular point, but I'm not sure the guard got a shot off before he caught several rounds. The shooting portion of the video lasted for about thirty-six seconds total.

It appeared that the person who survived was target number six, who caught a round and then disappeared back into the store prior to the shooter entering. It also appeared that all eleven were shot in that time span.

Much like the New Zealand shooting, the gunman moved quickly and purposefully, delivering very effective fire throughout his rampage.
 

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I've watched the video, and it is apparent to me that the killer spent serious hours on first person shooter games. He was hitting targets as soon as they came into view, multiple shots to each victim with fast finishing shots after they were down. He went through a thirty round mag in twenty-two seconds, quickly reloaded, applied another finishing shot, and then quickly dispatched who I believe was the security guard. The video was muddled at that particular point, but I'm not sure the guard got a shot off before he caught several rounds. The shooting portion of the video lasted for about thirty-six seconds total.

It appeared that the person who survived was target number six, who caught a round and then disappeared back into the store prior to the shooter entering. It also appeared that all eleven were shot in that time span.

Much like the New Zealand shooting, the gunman moved quickly and purposefully, delivering very effective fire throughout his rampage.
The site he was streaming it to makes me agree. He was streaming it on Twitch which is a gamers site. It’s kinda like FB but more all in chatting, commenting, streaming and playing same time live. My son uses it for some of his games that requires communication between team mates that you don’t want your opponents to hear.
And yes Mike it is all to eerie how similar the video looks just like a video game. His movements were exactly the same.
 

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failure to stop may not be realized in the dynamics of a real life situation...especially while taking incoming fire...the entire exchange was short...

my wife and i have a saying whenever theres a threat...shoot em in the eye...although placement might not be as easy as it is on a static target wtshtf and adrenaline is at 110% of capacity...
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
failure to stop may not be realized in the dynamics of a real life situation...especially while taking incoming fire...the entire exchange was short...

my wife and i have a saying whenever theres a threat...shoot em in the eye...although placement might not be as easy as it is on a static target wtshtf and adrenaline is at 110% of capacity...
In the training arena as well. 🤫
 

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15'
Getting small moving for whatever is available for cover.
Finger out if you are being fired on (variable) keep moving to be hard to hit and possible towards more substantial cover.
Use said cover as a bench rest, start killing.
Make a phone call.
 
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