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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently went to a show at the Broward Center for the Performing Arts. I had no problems in the past.

The recent incident was maybe in April of 2017. They had private security. Made everyone empty their pockets. I said I have a concealed carry license. They made me wait for a FLPD officer, who reviewed both that and my drivers license, and then let me go in.

I recorded part of the encounter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB8qqS9ca7k

Somewhat similar experiences at Mizner Park in Boca Raton. First time they made me wait - long wait - for a BRPD officer who was difficult but eventually let me in. That video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCCx-HfRwqk

At a later event I was not allowed to bring in firearm at all. No video from that one.
 

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Welcome to FCC and I assume your intro thread is forthcoming after my PM.

I can't remember if Mizner Park is public or privately owned, which makes a difference with regard to enforceability of "GFZs" under Florida Statutes government pre-emption and prohibited places.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
It is owned by the city and I have had correspondence with city officials about it.

http://www.co.palm-beach.fl.us/papa...il.aspx?parcel=06434720400010100&srchtype=map

Mr. Redlich –

The City received and has reviewed your e-mail correspondence of November 29, 2016, regarding the City’s Mizner Park Amphitheater and the entry of people with concealed weapon licenses carrying weapons into City events (based on your November 20, 2016 experience at the Mizner Park Amphitheater for a City event, the FAU band performance). To address the specific items that you raised in your e-mail:

· The City complies with Section 790.06, Florida Statutes, and related sections of the Florida Statutes, regarding the carrying of concealed weapons into City facilities with proper and valid concealed weapons licenses.

· The City does not ban the entry of people with concealed weapons to City events that are open to the public as long as they have valid concealed weapon licenses. The City does require verification that the licenses are valid, and such verifications are conducted by police officers on-site.

· During your November 20th encounter at the Amphitheater, you were not “detained” while you waited for the police officer to arrive to verify your concealed weapon license. During the time you were waiting, you were free to leave at any time.

· All City police officers have received training in the verification of concealed weapon licenses.

· Regarding the sign outside of the amphitheater, we appreciate you bringing to our attention the need to update it. We will be modifying or replacing the sign.

· Finally, Mizner Park Amphitheater is a City owned facility, and as stated above, the City allows people carrying concealed weapons with valid concealed weapon licenses to enter City events in the Amphitheater that are open to the public. However, for private events (generally ticketed events) in the Amphitheater, where third parties rent the facility for that event, the party renting the facility (often an event promoter) sets the entry policies for their private event, including any prohibition of items into the event, which may include concealed weapons, with or without a valid concealed weapon license.

Should you have any further questions on this matter, please feel free to contact me.

Michael Woika
Asst. City Manager
 

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Excellent. I was at an event there in November, as well but since they were wanding every entrant, I left most, but not all of my SD tools in the car.

I'm not certain but I believe it just might be that the city's statement regarding private events is something that Florida Carry says has not yet been tested in court but they've identified a case and are in working out how to proceed. Perhaps Rvrctyrngr will weigh in on that shortly. :dunno
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I do not believe a local government in Florida can allow a third party renting a public facility to override Chapter 790. I think this is illegal and am thinking about suing the city over it.

If I were to do that (I'm too busy to do it at the moment) I would have a friend (probably the one who was with me in the Mizner video) go through this and then I would represent him.
 

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Per Post #5:
"· During your November 20th encounter at the Amphitheater, you were not “detained” while you waited for the police officer to arrive to verify your concealed weapon license. During the time you were waiting, you were free to leave at any time."

Detained works both ways:
Free to leave, (or prevented from leaving).
Free to proceed, (or prevented from proceeding).

Seems to me you met the definition of being detained.
 

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I do not believe a local government in Florida can allow a third party renting a public facility to override Chapter 790. I think this is illegal and am thinking about suing the city over it.

If I were to do that (I'm too busy to do it at the moment) I would have a friend (probably the one who was with me in the Mizner video) go through this and then I would represent him.
Does it take a lawsuit, or just a call to the City Attorney?
 

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Item #5 in the thread is an e-mail from the city manager. The city attorney was involved in the conversation.
A few more thoughts about this while I was walking the dog:
This web site: https://www.myboca.us/Faq.aspx?QID=201 clearly states that weapons are prohibited.
I haven't checked yet to verify whether that is a legitimate (i.e., official) web site for the city or not.
Here's what item 7 has to say:

"7.What am I allowed / not allowed to bring inside the amphitheater? Items not allowed inside the amphitheater for events include: Umbrellas, pets, alcoholic beverages, coolers, backpacks, Selfie Sticks, or weapons. If the event is ticketed, please check your ticket for restrictions on cameras and video recording devices."

Consider:
What other rights might we forfeit attending a concert at Mizner Amphitheater sponsored by a private entity?
For example, do we lose our 5th Amendment Rights against self-incrimination if the event sponsors decided a person has no right to remain silent?
Or regarding the 4th Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures, say the bouncer like my watch.
Time to get a new watch?

Bottom line:
The act of renting a public venue does not confer any special authority to the private party to modify any law.
A private party is not the legislature.

I should add: (If any of my thoughts contradict or are incomplete)
The dachshund just killed his first iguana for the season, so that's on my mind. (A big sucker, too.)
Took a good 15 minutes to calm him down -- and I'm sure he still wants to back outside by the pool for Round-2.
 

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I do not believe a local government in Florida can allow a third party renting a public facility to override Chapter 790. I think this is illegal and am thinking about suing the city over it.

If I were to do that (I'm too busy to do it at the moment) I would have a friend (probably the one who was with me in the Mizner video) go through this and then I would represent him.
Have you joined Florida Carry yet? I'm sure they would want to talk about this and could perhaps provide some insight on strategy and their pending action along this front in a similar case.
 

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The City does not ban the entry of people with concealed weapons to City events that are open to the public as long as they have valid concealed weapon licenses. The City does require verification that the licenses are valid, and such verifications are conducted by police officers on-site.
Personally this sounds like "enacting or causing to be enforced any local ordinance or administrative rule or regulation impinging upon such exclusive occupation of the field" (F.S. 790.33) to me. There is nothing in the statute that permits the city to require you to submit to an inspection/validation of your CWFL by a law enforcement officer to enter a city owned venue. Were it me I would want the name of the person responsible for the rule (they said "[t]he City does require", so in order for it to "require" there must be a rule) so as to know who should be removed from office, fined $5,000, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
There is nothing in the statute that permits the city to require you to submit to an inspection/validation of your CWFL by a law enforcement officer to enter a city owned venue.
From 790.06(1):

"The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer."

That leads to an interesting question - when is it proper for an LEO to make such a demand?

I would argue that my entering a facility that is not a school or police station, and is not hosting an athletic event or legislative session, etc., is not a situation that would trigger the right for police to even inquire.

And if the person at the door checking for weapons or other prohibited items is not an LEO, I don't know where they get the right to stop a person, deny entry, and make you wait for an LEO. They can eyeball me and point me out to the LEO when he arrives, and the LEO can come talk to me wherever I've gone I suppose.

But with that said, I don't think that's the fight to have right now.

The fight to have right now is this use of a third party using government property and infringing the rights of someone with a license to carry.

By the way, as a result of this conversation I did a public records request for an event at Mizner where I was not allowed to carry even though I had my license. There was a "Downtown BBQ Throwdown" with Bobby Flay.

I was invited as a journalist (West Boca News) and had a free ticket. I decided it wasn't worth it at that point to challenge the issue because I actually wanted to cover the event - and eat some barbecue.

Anyway for that event I want to see if there's any language in the agreement between the event and the city that prohibited licensed carry.
 

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From 790.06(1):

"The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer."

That leads to an interesting question - when is it proper for an LEO to make such a demand?

I would argue that my entering a facility that is not a school or police station, and is not hosting an athletic event or legislative session, etc., is not a situation that would trigger the right for police to even inquire.

And if the person at the door checking for weapons or other prohibited items is not an LEO, I don't know where they get the right to stop a person, deny entry, and make you wait for an LEO. They can eyeball me and point me out to the LEO when he arrives, and the LEO can come talk to me wherever I've gone I suppose.

But with that said, I don't think that's the fight to have right now.

The fight to have right now is this use of a third party using government property and infringing the rights of someone with a license to carry.

By the way, as a result of this conversation I did a public records request for an event at Mizner where I was not allowed to carry even though I had my license. There was a "Downtown BBQ Throwdown" with Bobby Flay.

I was invited as a journalist (West Boca News) and had a free ticket. I decided it wasn't worth it at that point to challenge the issue because I actually wanted to cover the event - and eat some barbecue.

Anyway for that event I want to see if there's any language in the agreement between the event and the city that prohibited licensed carry.
:thumsup
 

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From 790.06(1):

"The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer."

That leads to an interesting question - when is it proper for an LEO to make such a demand?
There are really only two times an officer may demand anything from you: a) when you are lawfully detained, b) when you are under arrest. If a police officer takes possession of your license, you have been detained.

There is nothing in the statute that gives a government actor the right to deny you entry to a public facility (owned by the government) until such time as a law enforcement officer can arrive and validate your CWFL.

I would argue that my entering a facility that is not a school or police station, and is not hosting an athletic event or legislative session, etc., is not a situation that would trigger the right for police to even inquire.
Under those circumstances they would have RAS and would be allowed to detain and investigate since even if you possess a CWFL you'd be committing a crime by being armed. Under those circumstances you'd need to have a Class "G" license and be performing regulated activities to be legal.

And if the person at the door checking for weapons or other prohibited items is not an LEO, I don't know where they get the right to stop a person, deny entry, and make you wait for an LEO. They can eyeball me and point me out to the LEO when he arrives, and the LEO can come talk to me wherever I've gone I suppose.
Exactly. You tell them "I am armed and a CWFL holder" - maybe even display your credentials to set their mind at ease - and they should permit you to enter. If they want to make a note of your description and pass it along to LE to keep an eye on you, or attempt a consensual encounter, then that's fine. But the officer would not have RAS to detain and investigate, demand your license, etc. There is no reasonable, articulable suspicion of committing a crime. Especially with the reworded language now found in 790.01.

Honestly even having a metal detector to check for firearms in the first place seems a little iffy if the venue is not a "prohibited place". Having a metal detector is implicitly a policy/rule concerning firearms in my opinion. The only way they could avoid liablity under 790.33 is by treating apparent CWFL holders with the utmost deference and allowing us to proceed on our way without any hassle of any kind.
 

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...I was invited as a journalist (West Boca News) and had a free ticket. I decided it wasn't worth it at that point to challenge the issue because I actually wanted to cover the event - and eat some barbecue.

Anyway for that event I want to see if there's any language in the agreement between the event and the city that prohibited licensed carry.
So the price of freedom comes down to a basket of ribs?

I'm just messin' with you.
I wouldn't have passed up free BBQ either. :)
 

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BrianB (and others here),
What are your thoughts on requiring the 3rd party (i.e., entity that is renting the venue) to pay to have an LEO present at the entry, who would then verify CCW permits?
And beyond that requirement, the 3rd party has no involvement whatsoever in CCW matters.

I guess I'm asking if you think that arrangement would strike a reasonable balance between the desires of all parties involved.
 
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