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I lost my “ghost guns” in a dremel accident.


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What's the excuse for losing your testi?
 

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I know it's not a bill, was just a simple misspeak.

You are absolutely wrong about federal agencies don't and can't make law. They are empowered to do just that by the legislature, and it happens all the time. They aren't bills, but they are findings and regulations that have the effect of law. Often you will see in a piece of legislation a phrase such as, "...as the (agency or agency head) may direct." That specifically means that congress is not going to work out every last detail, but they are giving the fleshing out of the details to a specific federal agency or agency head. Every single year certain rates in federal programs increase because they are pegged to some other monetary data point, such as Social Security being tied to GDP and inflation rate. Every time those things change, you don't see Congress spitting out a new bill laying out new SS rates, they've simply delegated that responsibility to the SSA and they do it.
Same with state agencies in Florida.
Theirs are called Florida Administrative Code and the agencies follow an administrative rule making process. Though it should come as no surprise; the rule making often follows responsibilities being directed/delegated to the appropriate agency, most often with no funding provided to meet those additional responsibilities.
 

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P80s still in stock at Primary:


Anyways, the 364 page ruling is intentionally retarded, so the AFT has tons of grey area to declare things a thing so they can regulate and/or ban it.

The part about leaving existing firearm designs alone (for now) is basically so this thing has a chance of surviving a court challenge. If the courts ruled impartially, it would be a no-brainer. But it really comes down to getting this thing in front of a judge who still remembers he's supposed to be apolitical.
 

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I wanted to wait till the emotional reactions calmed down a little bit before responding. Let me try to give some perspective to this. I’ve spoken to several friends who are Homicide investigators and many LEO’s. I looked at a bunch of different gun forums and found the reactions to this ATF action to range from “This was the low hanging fruit, we expected them to be eventually regulated” to more hysterical responses such as “it’s a big plan, trust me, they’re coming for your guns, secure your doors and windows” This action seems to have created more debate than when Trump jumped on the ban-wagon to immediately ban bump stocks. It seems there weren’t enough gun owning Democrats to shriek more loudly about Trump‘s actions and the Republicans were largely quiet because he was Trump.

The national tracing center for the ATF is in Martinsburg West Virginia. It has about 15 semi tractor trailer bodies full of paper records from FFL‘s who have gone out of business and then they are required to send in the records of an original purchaser. They get 1,000,000 to 1.5M of these records per month. By law they are prohibited from sharing any information to anyone other than LEA.

They have a system called E – trace and when they obtain an inquiry from an agency nationally or internationally, they start a search. What they can basically tell from the serial number is the original manufacturer and the FFL to which it was delivered. Then they reach out to the FFL to determine the original purchaser. They have guidelines here basically called “Time to crime“ or something like that. If the time of purchase to recover the weapon is 30 days or less, they start a “straw purchasers“ investigation. There’s another I think either 60 or 90 days where they suspect a gun trafficking situation.

There are time periods for reporting things to ATF. If you buy two or more guns within five days there’s a special form that must be sent by law to the ATF and to the local chief law enforcement officer by close of business that day. The CLEO must destroy those records within 20 days. I think they keep the record of multiple firearm purchases at the ATF.

If a theft of firearms from an FFL occurs, they have 48 hours to report them to the ATF. If you didn’t buy two or more guns within five days, the paper 4473 is kept at the FFL dealer basically indefinitely. Those are used for the original purchaser search if necessary. So the way to potentially get on the radar is to buy two or more handgun within five days

There is an ATF program called collective data sharing. If one agency reports finding shell casings as seen from a 9 mm and another agency, perhaps another jurisdiction or state finds a 9 mm a day or two later, this allows them to put two and two together, do ballistics, etc.

How does a serial number aid in solving a crime?, a question often asked. The general response is that it’s not a panacea but it provides investigative leads. A weapon recovered might unveil a straw purchasers program, might disclose that it was stolen from a gun shop in a certain locality and in rare circumstances might actually disclose a bad guy. If you cross reference the suspects from the gun store robbery suspects in the homicide/home burglary and two agencies work together something good might happen.

One of my homicide buddies told me that many criminals are stupid and many are not. If they were offered two guns on the black market, one with no serial number whatsoever and one with a serial number or a defaced serial number, he said it wasn’t rocket science to determine which one they would buy.

Most law-enforcement I’ve spoken with feel that the P 80 marketing has perhaps unintentionally created a demand for these pistols by criminals/felons/prohibited persons. They feel that whatever value it would be, they are deprived of any investigative leads that might come from researching the origin of the handgun.

Now a comment about working at home and social media as it pertains to privately made firearms. One goofball from Rhode Island was arrested and it was determined that he had a “workstation“ set up at home where he was buying lots and lots of P 80 type kits, putting them together and selling them for tremendous profit. Right or wrong, they are saying that a pistol with no serial number is worth substantially more on the black market than one with a serial number or a defaced serial number. Logically it makes sense to me.To a criminal, I would think a pistol with no serial number commands a higher price.

One of the ways in which this guy was discovered was that he was making YouTube videos showing off how cool he was and adept at making the P80s. The need to show off collided with law enforcement investigation and the ATF.

The law enforcement response seems to be that people continue to have their hobby to make P80s and get the satisfaction out of creating something themselves as I mentioned before just like car collectors. They can continue to show each other pictures and videos of their accomplishments. The difference is that they now will have a serial number on a pistol and most responsible gun owners shouldn’t have a problem with that because they are law abiding.

I don’t know what the exact numbers are, probably nobody does but it does seem logical that we’ve had a situation for many years publicized more recently where a convicted felon, prohibited person or someone up to no good can get one of these kits mailed to a PO Box with no record, no screening. They can then ruin it for the hobbyist, it’s back to a focus on the criminal and his buying preferences rather than on the gun. Should that factor beat out a hobbyists desire to buy a kit to make a pistol without a serial number? I guess that’s the question but I think because of that question, the ATF rule will be upheld in court. Any challenge will have to be to their rule-making authority in general not specifically as to this rule to have any hope of being successful.
 

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An example of an ATF trace:

Many years ago I traded a KelTec PLR16 to a guy for a HK USP Compact in .357 Sig.

Quite a while later I got a call from my FFL friend advising me that the police supply business I bought from had an inquiry by the ATF regarding the weapon. I called ATF, told him I was the original purchaser and offered them the documentation regarding the guy I traded with.

After I questioned them they told me it could’ve been stolen, could’ve been used in a crime, could’ve been found by someone and all they knew was there was an inquiry and they looked up the FFL info. They said even if they did know they couldn’t tell me anyway even though I was the original purchaser. They told me that any action on the matter would be taken by the local law enforcement agency and they really didn’t want to know anything about the guy I traded with.

I never heard anything from anybody. I was concerned at first and ready to help, even had the guys tag number but “boom” nothing happened.
 

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If anyone says a 80% gun is not a way to get a firearm to a person that is not legally permitted to own one is a fking idiot. For any politician to say this is the only way for them to get their hands on one is dumber than a box of rocks. End of conversation.
 

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If anyone says a 80% gun is not a way to get a firearm to a person that is not legally permitted to own one is a fking idiot.
I don't recall anyone suggesting that. It's one of MANY ways an illegal person can get a gun.

But, anyone who thinks that restricting the Rights of peaceful law-abiding citizens is the way to stop criminals is a F***ing idiot.

Picking this VERY small contributor out for special treatment and exception from our 2A Rights is not just an idiot... he or she is a treasonous tyrant.

For any politician to say this is the only way for them to get their hands on one is dumber than a box of rocks. End of conversation.
Of course.

It is safe to say that this unconstitutional measure will do NOTHING to curb the acts of criminals. It WILL increase the costs for citizens who want to exercise their 2A Rights.

It will also drive many hobbyists to 3D printing, which of course, brings us right back to where we started. What are they going to do? Serialize spools of raw nylon? What about machinists who can (and have been for eons) mill a receiver from a ZERO PERCENT block of steel, aluminum, or plastic?

Idiots. The lot of them and the lot of those who mindlessly and reflexively clap like seals
 

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Trying to look at this debate objectively, I find myself torn. The old law enforcement side of me keeps saying that convicted felons should not be able to get a gun. Then it says they should not be able to have things mailed directly to their home where they can put together a pistol in an hour or 10 hours or however long it takes an individual. There is evidence that felons have obtained pistols this way including the one who shot the two police officers in California in an ambush. That bothers me.

I guess the standard retort is “if they wanted a gun, they could’ve got one somewhere else“. Maybe that’s true but they couldn’t have gotten the specific one that crippled those two police officers. Could an actual terrorist get a complete package mailed to a PO Box so he can make his own Glockish pistol? Is that right or wrong?

The optics of the debate are bothersome. We probably don’t know the exact number but there has been significant publicity surrounding felons found in possession of the P80s for example or having shot people with them. No doubt that’s what we’re going to hear a lot of this afternoon and they will probably parade out some victims of shootings by unserialized weapons and try to push the focus on the weapon rather than the shooter.

The gun guy part of me doesn’t like federal intervention into our hobby and/or our constitutional rights under the Second amendment. Some people see this as a legitimate hobby and they like to show pictures or videos of what they’ve done and complement each other just like car collectors do when they build a hot rod from scratch. Everyone has a right to get a verbal pat on the back if it makes them feel good.

I think most of us intellectually believe that there are certain people who should not have access to firearms. It could be because they are mentally unstable, a convicted felon, a serial wife beater, suicidal or whatever. I guess the question becomes does anyone have a legitimate idea on how to thread the needle balancing these two public concerns?

I think the “slippery slope“ argument is legitimate and scares all of us to death with respect to possible registration at some point in the future fueled by disputes that clever marketers started with their “80%“ kits. I doubt their intention was to create an avenue for felons or terrorists or prohibited persons to get handguns, it was collateral damage.
HAVE YOU EVER HAD A HUNTING LICENSE?
TThe gov't knows who you are and w*'ll assume yo u have one or more firearms.
They want to negate the Declaration of Independance and the reason for the Second Amendment.
The People have a right and duty to prevent tyranny. The final proposed Constitution did not guarantee the People. That's why the Bill of Rights was written and ratified.
 

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Decades ago we all agreed not to allow people to own, purchase or manufacture a long list of illicit drugs. Criminals have no problem accessing drugs in this country.

Even if we outlawed and confiscated ALL privately and criminally owned guns they would flood back into the country along the same channels the illicit drugs follow. Cartels have no problem bringing tons of drugs into the country every year. Why would they not set up manufacturing facilities and import guns to arm their dealer networks? All I think about when people talk about banning guns is a society where only organized street gangs have guns.
Mexican drug cartels have antiaircraft artilery, tons of AK47 ( CHINA, and war surplus ).

Cartels buy guns in the USA just to justify gun control in the USA. Otherwise they import from countries. or steal guns our DEA supply to Mexico to fight drug wars The cartels run the government.
 

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Actually I was kidding.

Did you see Biden's speech yesterday. I was unfortunate enough to catch some of it. Nothing but lies about guns and our gun rights. Nothing but applause from the brain dead crowd. He promised to bring back the AWB that "he" got passed in the 90s. He spewed the old BS about anyone needing "20 rounds" to shoot a deer being a bad shot. Then came up with a new one. He said that even when the 2A was written you couldn't buy any gun you wanted. He's inventing precedent that goes back to the founders and the crowd cheered.
Ordinary citizens, ship owners and unorganized militia often bought cannons. Getting guns. Before 1938 machine guns such as 1918 BARs, Thomsons could be ordered. Colt even advertise for ranchers to protect against hustlers.
 

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After THEY finish 80% kits they will have to close all automotive shops and home workshops.
GRIZZY sells specialized computer controlled CNC lathes and mills.
A real gunsmith can make a gun with just files.
Next they'll have to demand a 4473 to purchase a spool of nylon for a 3D printer. And serialize rectangular blocks of plastic, aluminum, and steel.
 

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To be clear, the United States Department of Justice told a U.S. Congressman’s staff member that their “ghost gun” data is neither accurate nor comprehensive, and then just days later, the President of the United States issued an executive order stripping Americans of the Second Amendment rights based upon this inaccurate data.
It seems an ATF SAIC out in Commiefornia had a bug up his ass about 80 percent builds and basically made up some nonsense, and that's what got this ball rolling.

This is another avenue of attack, actually. The AFT can be attacked for exceeding their authority, and also falsifying data to push an agenda.

It'll be a long road but I don't think this will stand if we can get this in front of the right judges. I say long road because there's been lower court decisions basically ruling that the bumpstock ban was/is BS, but it's still with us. If I recall, they nailed some crackhead in Texas for threatening President Trump, and he had a bumpstock past the ban date. The court tossed the "machine gun" charge since they said it wouldn't stick, plus they already had him on the drugs and threats.
 

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HAVE YOU EVER HAD A HUNTING LICENSE?
TThe gov't knows who you are and w*'ll assume yo u have one or more firearms.
They want to negate the Declaration of Independance and the reason for the Second Amendment.
The People have a right and duty to prevent tyranny. The final proposed Constitution did not guarantee the People. That's why the Bill of Rights was written and ratified.
Same can be said for carry permits. The government knows you have a gun or multiple guns at that point. What's interesting is that for a minute, the CWFL records in Florida could be pulled by anyone making an FOIA request. After the Miami New Times did an article outing famous CWFL holders in Miami, CWFLs were granted an exemption to the sunshine law.

That being said, a few things work in our advantage in terms of government snooping:

- Government incompetence. The aboveboard NFRTR (NFA) registry has been audited and was deemed to be quite error-prone. The government's registry of it's own guns is full of holes too. If their legal registries suck, their illegal ones suck even more.

- Sheer mass. There's 500+ million privately owned guns in this country. Have fun going after them.
 

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- Sheer mass. There's 500+ million privately owned guns in this country. Have fun going after them.
I think that estimate is way low. I keep seeing 400M. I think they intentionally misstate the numbers. I think it's probably 800M+.... maybe close to a billion. There have been nearly 420 million NICS checks since late 1998, when the system was established.

So, the 400M number would have to assume ZERO guns in the U.S. prior to 1998. Well... yeah... there ya go. How many were there BEFORE 1998?

400 - 500 million guns? Way, WAY low.
 
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After THEY finish 80% kits they will have to close all automotive shops and home workshops.
GRIZZY sells specialized computer controlled CNC lathes and mills.
A real gunsmith can make a gun with just files.
Well, except for putting the bore/rifling through the barrel…
 
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