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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
One of the things that are very confusing is when you may have to show your weapon or even putting your hand on the weapon to stop a threat. If you did have to do this would it be brandishing.

Three guys come up to you and your wife. They start talking the talk. You try to walk the other way. They continue to follow you. They say they are going to kick your ###. You can not see a weapon on them. They start walking faster towards you. You are still retreating. Finally you stop and draw your weapon. They stop and turn away.

Do you call the police and let them know what happened in case someone saw you pull your gun. That way you are letting them know that you were the victim. Could you be charged with brandishing or worse aggrevated assault.

It is a fine line on how long you should wait before you draw. If they do not have a weapon do you have to wait until they hit you. I personally would not want them that close. If they get that close it could be all over and you may not be able to draw.

Any thoughts. How long do you wait and can you be charged and arrested.

Thanks for your input.
 

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It's a good idea to call the police ANY time your gun clears leather, but in the scenario you described I doubt that you'd be arrested for brandishing since you were

A) pursued despite your attempt to retreat, and

B) it was 3:1 odds against you (I don't consider an unarmed spouse as a potential combatant).

It might have been premature to actually draw your weapon lacking any specific threat, but sweeping your cover garment back and placing your hand on you gun in view of the BGs would be an appropriate response IMO (I did just that in a nearly identical situation); as long as you can articulate a reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily injury I think you'd be OK. Especially if the BGs who complained about your 'brandishing' turned out to be three dirtbags with previous arrest records (which is probable).
 

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This thread might become at least 5 pages long but with good reason. Your question is the $100,000 question.

A perceived threat that warrants an armed response is going to be a big judgement call on your part. You might have to answer a whole lot of questions but by all means defend your family if you feel it's needed and there is no other choice.

As deadeyedick pointed out, 3 against 1 is overwhelming force if anything starts but is it just verbal threats at this point. I would initiate the 911 call before I show the gun if I can or ask your wife to do it for you. Along with retreating that would be a clear indication that you are trying to avoid a confrontation and so if the three men continue to advance then a verbal warning to stay back and sweeping your cover garment would be next.

Retreating, calling 911 and a verbal warning to stay back shows more than clearly that you tried to avoid a bad situation.
 

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"Brandishing" should be covered under the following FL Statute:

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
I italicized the "not in necessary self-defense" bit. That would seem to cover the OP in his given scenario, but "necessary self-defense" could be in the eye of the beholder. It would probably be a good idea to go ahead and call it in for that scenario. Often, the person calling the police first is initially assumed to be the "good guy".

-JT
 

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The above posts all make good sense. I believe brandishing a weapon would be a last resort before drawing. You would have to decide if, and when, the threat became more than just a threat. If it were me and my wife I'd have her make the 911 call while I kept an eye on the BGs--all the time attempting to get away. My hand would be very obviously near my weapon but not necessarily showing it. Another thought might be to use or have at the ready your knife, spray, or baton if you also carry these, etc.

Here's another scenario: How would you react if they managed to corner you (no place to go) and they kept coming and still not showing any indication that they are armed?
 

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Here's another scenario: How would you react if they managed to corner you (no place to go) and they kept coming and still not showing any indication that they are armed?
If I'm cornered then all bets are off...it's fight or flight, and they've eliminated flight as an option for me. The gun is not only coming out, it will be aimed directly at whichever of the BGs that I perceive to be the greatest/most immediate threat, accompanied by some expletive-laced instructions that I will shoot them forthwith if they don't immediately flee.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I know there are alot of options that can be taken. I guess the big question is how long you wait. You are retreating and being pursued. You may not even have time to call 911 since you and your wife are being occupied with the BG's. Would putting your hand on your weapon still holstered and showing the BG's that you have a gun be considered brandishing even though a weapon has not been seen on the BG's.

The LEO's say cooperate with the BG's. I am sure all you have heard that in Orlando some people that has complied with the BG's are still shot.

I do agree that you should call the police. This does show that you are not trying to hide anything and that you are the victim.
 

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I know there are alot of options that can be taken. I guess the big question is how long you wait. You are retreating and being pursued. You may not even have time to call 911 since you and your wife are being occupied with the BG's. Would putting your hand on your weapon still holstered and showing the BG's that you have a gun be considered brandishing even though a weapon has not been seen on the BG's.
Being pursued by multiple BGs? I would say no, and I'd like to see a prosecutor try to convince twelve people in this state that it is. Any cop that would arrest you for such is too stupid to be in law enforcement.

The LEO's say cooperate with the BG's.
That advice is for the sheep, not us. :laughing

As far as knowing when it's the right time to draw your weapon, I would say it's like being in love...you'll know it when it happens.
 

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Do not turn your back to anyone confronting you.

Standing your ground is legal.

NEVER turn your back to anyone, (1 or 3) confronting you.

If need be, turn your holster side away from them, and put your hand on

your gun. Not letting them see your gun, but letting them know they have

chosen the wrong one.:cool:


Turning your back to anyone confronting you could get you shot or stabbed

in the baCK.

Hesitating could get you, and your wife killed.........Always call the law,

whatever happens.
 

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I agree with all the above but would add a caution. If they see you calling 911 it might set them off at you to stop the call. Grabbing your gun may get a similar response from them if they are armed. If you call be at the ready. If you brandish be even more careful of their response. With all the adrenaline shooting into your body at this point, OMG, you are walking a fine line.

Would it be ok to say to them, "please pull a knife or gun on me"?
 

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tailspin,

Read post 3 [ mine ] and post 8 [ Dave Williams ] in the below link.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2369

This discussion was addressed on my own forum. Poster #8 is a former Marine combat veteran [ Capt ] in Iraq with a lot of experience. He's also one of my moderators.

Brownie
 

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Three or one

If three dudes were confronting you, talking the talk.

What is talking the talk? Give me your money, give me everything you have, we are going to rape your wife.............we are going to beat the dung out of you and your wife............

What does it take for you to defend yourself, and your wife ?

Why are you carrying ? Sorry, defend yourself and your wife.

Too many BG's around these days, and they don't care about you or your wife.

You CAN be too nice... Hesitate and ..... dead is a long time.
 

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Some good posts here.

Personally? I'm not bothering with the cell phone. I'll worry about all of that once everything is over and I/we are safe.

3 against one with clear intent? Disparity of Force. Hand will go to the weapon and strong verbal commands given. I'm going to even the odds quickly and decisively. If that doesn't do it, it's going to get loud.

Action beats reaction. By acting counter to what they think you're going to do, now they're on the defensive.
 

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Some good posts here.

Personally? I'm not bothering with the cell phone. I'worry about all of that once everything is over and I/we are safe.

3 against one with clear intent? Disparity of Force. Hand will go to the weapon and strong verbal commands given. I'm going to even the odds quickly and decisively. If that doesn't do it, it's going to get loud.

Action beats reaction. By acting counter to what they think you're going to do, now they're on the defensive.
Truth is sad, but still truth........Defend yourself...Good post
 

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Here's my initial thoughts on this scenario

For whatever reason you are now confronted with 3 or more potential assailants; although your jacket is unbuttoned you were asleep at the wheel and now surprised

"they start making vulger remarks about your female companion. They seem to be working themselves up; but no threats have been made and they still seem unarmed."

Tell the significant other to "go to car", "go back in the store", GO SOMEWHERE, ANYWHERE but get her to move away from you and the group of punks.

That creates two possibilities immediately----

Significant other moves to safety and out of the area, one less problem to think about.

One or more move to stop her extrication.

If the first ocurrs, the situation is more tenable for you for the moment

If the second ocurrs, you now have an articulable reason to defend your significant other from their overt action to prevent her from leaving. By one or more trying to stop her from moving away, they have created a situiation that would warrant drawing due to their physical intent to impede her escape and the disparity of force now presented.

Game time immediately as soon as one or more attempts to stop her exit.

If the significant other gets away, then the "boys" get to watch me exit as well and if they don't physically try to stop my exit, all is well in whoville. If they attempt to stop my exit, disparity of force applies again and I may or may not draw, that will situationally dependant on many factors.

I don't want the problem, I don't want to be forced to use force, I don't want to have to answer all the questions. I will, but I don't want to have to if I can avoid it.

From the time I start to draw from concelad to shoot three BG's at 4-7 feet away, takes 1.15 seconds or less. We ran a 2-2-2 drill where the BG's were 12 feet out, 6 feet apart and from the "go" signal, I run 2.24 seconds for two shots on each of the three BG's drawing from the holster with a glock 17, all perfect COM hits. I'd get one into each in this scenario, taking .66-.75 seconds off that 2.24 second drill as well as anther good .40 seconds off due to their being much closer not having to slow down as much to make the COM hits.

If the significant other is allowed to move away, great. If ANY of them make a move to stop her, it's going to be a bad day for all three of them PDQ. When I tell her to move, I'm ready to take them out if they aren't smart enough to leave her alone. Protecting the significant other once she is moving away is not different than protecting one of my clients while working protection details, with the exception that the client will not be asked to move away, and I'd have a few others with me usually to even the odds.

No one gets inside the "inner circle" of either of us if I feel threatened. 4 feet is pushing the limits of the inner circle. If they move closer than that, well, they've made more than one mistake and that last mistake is going to cost them dearly if any of them make a move to stop the significant other.

I feel most ccw carriers are going to be behind the curve here as they don't have the draw speed I can rely on. If they are 4-7 feet away and menacing, most will be unable to get the gun into play if they see the start of the draw and rush in. One of the most overlooked aspects of SD with a handgun is draw speed to hits on threats. You have to be able to get the gun in play before you can solve the problem.

How many here could draw and fire the first shot from concealed in under 1 second? If you can't, you may never get the gun into play at all before they are on you from 4-7 feet. How many know how to protect their person from physical damage while drawing and firing while keeping their firearm from being grabbed on one or two BG's at extreme close quarters? It's not quite as easy as it seems.

Putting your hand on your gun might intimidate them or it might not. If they push the issue and rush you, you are going to likely find out just how vulnerable you are even when armed at those distances.

Brownie
 

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Brownie, sometimes I really wish you'd give things some thought before posting. :rolf

Good thoughts, sir. :thumsup
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
This is some really good stuff. I really appreciate all the responses. It really makes you think alot. Some things were mentioned that I had not thought about. Everybody has to determine how much space they need before they feel like it is being invaded and safety is an issue.

It seems alot agree that if this happened you should call the police and report the incident right away if you were not able to contact 911 before hand. Either the BG's or witnesses may see you draw or see your weapon in your holster and call the police themselves and report a man with a gun. Better you first.

With the economy the way it is I could see things getting even worse.
 

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With the economy the way it is I could see things getting even worse.
Amen to that brother.
 

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Any thoughts. How long do you wait and can you be charged and arrested.

Thanks for your input.
The moment I "reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend" myself "to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony" which includes "robbery", I will be positioning myself in such a manner as to put my strong hand away from the threat, and placing my hand on my weapon.

In no way will this be considered "exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense".

In any instance that you may have to demonstrate that you have a weapon, or actually draw the weapon, remember to use the phrase:
" I was in fear of my life" if/when you have to explain your action at a later date.


The 2008 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

History.--s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.


Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

History.--s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 4, ch. 75-298; s. 289, ch. 79-400; s. 5, ch. 93-212; s. 10, ch. 95-195.

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
 

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Folks, forcible felony covers a lot of ground.

776.08 Forcible felony.--"Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

So, it seems reasonable to be able to protect yourself and family as long as the situation warrants it. Good situational awareness seems to be the best weapon in most if not all situations. Keep your wits about you and your levels up and you should not have any problems (i.e. don't go looking for a fight).
 
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