Carry a fake pistol open carry and a REAL one in your pocket. That will teach them a lesson.
BG tries to take your gun
This may not be that big of a deal in Florida but more so if you lived in a state like Georgia where OC was legal. I have been in GA where OC was legal and OC'ed myself a few times. I was wondering what people here would do if someone went for your gun. I know, I know, how do they know your carrying. Thats why I said its probably not a big deal in FL, but seriously. I carry OWB with a holster from Little Bear and it does not have a thumb break or anything. What if someone tried to take your firearm away. I dont just mean that they put there hand next to it. I mean there was an all out struggle with yourself. Does anyone here think that they would be justified in using deadly force in that situation? And for people like browine who can kill someone with a toothpick and one hand tied behind there back, dumb it down a little to the average Joe who does not have your same abilities.
1 - 20 of 45 Posts
http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/0700db91-f16d-42d8-b44c-b24f461aac87/FLBRC-HLV209.aspxThis may not be that big of a deal in Florida but more so if you lived in a state like Georgia where OC was legal. I have been in GA where OC was legal and OC'ed myself a few times. I was wondering what people here would do if someone went for your gun. I know, I know, how do they know your carrying. Thats why I said its probably not a big deal in FL, but seriously. I carry OWB with a holster from Little Bear and it does not have a thumb break or anything. What if someone tried to take your firearm away. I dont just mean that they put there hand next to it. I mean there was an all out struggle with yourself. Does anyone here think that they would be justified in using deadly force in that situation? And for people like browine who can kill someone with a toothpick and one hand tied behind there back, dumb it down a little to the average Joe who does not have your same abilities.
This is the Basic Recruit Curriculum for new officers in florida. If you are interested in Weapon retention, you can read the text on page 276 and do some practice. I went through both the Corrections academy and the Law Enforcement Academy and both used the same Curriculum. I have had training in the weapon retention. It works if the techniques are done properly. There is also the reading on how to do the defensive tactics also. I think this might be something to look into.
Something else to look into is a self defense class. NOT KARATE. A self defense class is much more motivating that Karate is. There is a teaching called Krav Maga. REALLY GOOD.... see if it is offered in your area. EVER HEARD OF THIS BROWNIE?
http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/0700db91-f16d-42d8-b44c-b24f461aac87/FLBRC-HLV209.aspx
This is the Basic Recruit Curriculum for new officers in florida. If you are interested in Weapon retention, you can read the text on page 276 and do some practice. I went through both the Corrections academy and the Law Enforcement Academy and both used the same Curriculum. I have had training in the weapon retention. It works if the techniques are done properly. There is also the reading on how to do the defensive tactics also. I think this might be something to look into.
Something else to look into is a self defense class. NOT KARATE. A self defense class is much more motivating that Karate is. There is a teaching called Krav Maga. REALLY GOOD.... see if it is offered in your area. EVER HEARD OF THIS BROWNIE?
Hey, thanks for posting man. I will take a look at it. I appreciate the link.
That document seems to show some ways in which to prevent a BG from getting your firearm which is very important. But what then. Lets say you perform a move which allows you to maintain your firearm. The BG is not going to just stop. What do you do then? Do you pull your firearm on him because he has shown that he is a threat? Do you run like hell and hope you are faster than him? Lets say you pull the firearm on him, is deadly force warrented?http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/0700db91-f16d-42d8-b44c-b24f461aac87/FLBRC-HLV209.aspx
This is the Basic Recruit Curriculum for new officers in florida. If you are interested in Weapon retention, you can read the text on page 276 and do some practice. I went through both the Corrections academy and the Law Enforcement Academy and both used the same Curriculum. I have had training in the weapon retention. It works if the techniques are done properly. There is also the reading on how to do the defensive tactics also. I think this might be something to look into.
Something else to look into is a self defense class. NOT KARATE. A self defense class is much more motivating that Karate is. There is a teaching called Krav Maga. REALLY GOOD.... see if it is offered in your area. EVER HEARD OF THIS BROWNIE?
That document seems to show some ways in which to prevent a BG from getting your firearm which is very important. But what then. Lets say you perform a move which allows you to maintain your firearm. The BG is not going to just stop. What do you do then? Do you pull your firearm on him because he has shown that he is a threat? Do you run like hell and hope you are faster than him? Lets say you pull the firearm on him, is deadly force warrented?
You would probably be justified in drawing your weapon. As far as Justifed deadly force. I would say NO. You have a gun drawn on an unarmed person and then you shoot him. A jury will not see it our way. If i was on the jury, You would be innocent. Then if he comes in close and attempts to take it away, fire away.:ak
We train techniques based off two basic scenarios:
1. The bad guy is going for your weapon but has yet to lay a hand on it.
2. The bad guy actually managed to get your hand on your gun.
The reason being is that some weapon retention techniques, when applied in the instance where the bad guy actually has hold of your gun, will actually serve to aid the bad guy by pull the holster away from the weapon.
-JT
1. The bad guy is going for your weapon but has yet to lay a hand on it.
2. The bad guy actually managed to get your hand on your gun.
The reason being is that some weapon retention techniques, when applied in the instance where the bad guy actually has hold of your gun, will actually serve to aid the bad guy by pull the holster away from the weapon.
-JT
Anytime somebody tries to take your gun you are 100% justified in shooting them. Next question? 
Personally, I doubt that very many BGs will have the nads to try and snatch a holstered gun from a visibly armed civilian. I would be very interested to examine an account of a situation where that actually occurred (if anyone knows of one), because I've never heard of that happening.
Personally, I doubt that very many BGs will have the nads to try and snatch a holstered gun from a visibly armed civilian. I would be very interested to examine an account of a situation where that actually occurred (if anyone knows of one), because I've never heard of that happening.
I too am Joe average when it comes to h2h. If my major concern is protecting myself and posessions w/ less than lethal force I would consider carrying an ASP. I know they take training to be very effective. But if I can pull my ASP (off handed) and whack the would-be thief with it I get the distinct impression he will back off and I will have space and time to pull my heater (from the 'what do you call your weapon thread'..).
But, having no real world experience, I will bow to those that do.
).But, having no real world experience, I will bow to those that do.
If you open carry and you are worried about your gun being taken either don't open carry or get training. You can start by getting and using either a level 2 or 3 retention holster.
A quicky course in handgun retention.
There are two situations in which your hand gun is vulnerable. The first is when it is holstered and the second is when it has been deployed defensively, but has either not been fired, or has been fired, but has not yet been effective against the BG.
In the case of a holstered weapon, always secure the weapon; not the holster. The retention technique, provided by adog88, is not a very effective technique when using a security holster, is even less effective with a non-security holster and is useless with a IWB holster. To secure a holstered weapon, I would suggest that you secure the weapon by placing the hand, that is closest to the weapon, directly upon the grip of the weapon or the BG's hand, if it is resting upon the grip of your weapon, and press down. From that point there are a number of techniques that will allow you to force the BG to relinquish control of, or to thwart his attempt to grab, your weapon. Once you have either thwarted his initial attempt to grab your weapon, or have removed his hand from it, you must gain distance, if possible.
If a BG attempts to grab your weapon, while it is in your hand, you must remove the weapon from his reach. Step back, stiff arm the BG, kick him, shoot him, whatever is necessary to open distance between you and your attacker and keep him from gaining control of your firearm.
I would say that you would have a very good chance of justifying shooting an unarmed assailant if, 1) he actively attempted to obtain control of your firearm during the attack and 2) once you had secured your weapon he continued the attack or you were forced to shoot him to keep him from obtaining control of your firearm. Once again, common sense should prevail in the utilization of deadly force. Once the threat of attack is no longer present, you can no longer justify the use of deadly force. You may have a problem if you shoot him while he is running away, for example.
Now, a much more likely means of gaining control of your holstered firearm is simply to hit you over the head, stunning you, and taking your weapon. That is where both effective concealment and situational awareness come in.
By the way, many BGs train to disarm police and citizens while in prison. It is something that you have be aware of.
There are two situations in which your hand gun is vulnerable. The first is when it is holstered and the second is when it has been deployed defensively, but has either not been fired, or has been fired, but has not yet been effective against the BG.
In the case of a holstered weapon, always secure the weapon; not the holster. The retention technique, provided by adog88, is not a very effective technique when using a security holster, is even less effective with a non-security holster and is useless with a IWB holster. To secure a holstered weapon, I would suggest that you secure the weapon by placing the hand, that is closest to the weapon, directly upon the grip of the weapon or the BG's hand, if it is resting upon the grip of your weapon, and press down. From that point there are a number of techniques that will allow you to force the BG to relinquish control of, or to thwart his attempt to grab, your weapon. Once you have either thwarted his initial attempt to grab your weapon, or have removed his hand from it, you must gain distance, if possible.
If a BG attempts to grab your weapon, while it is in your hand, you must remove the weapon from his reach. Step back, stiff arm the BG, kick him, shoot him, whatever is necessary to open distance between you and your attacker and keep him from gaining control of your firearm.
I would say that you would have a very good chance of justifying shooting an unarmed assailant if, 1) he actively attempted to obtain control of your firearm during the attack and 2) once you had secured your weapon he continued the attack or you were forced to shoot him to keep him from obtaining control of your firearm. Once again, common sense should prevail in the utilization of deadly force. Once the threat of attack is no longer present, you can no longer justify the use of deadly force. You may have a problem if you shoot him while he is running away, for example.
Now, a much more likely means of gaining control of your holstered firearm is simply to hit you over the head, stunning you, and taking your weapon. That is where both effective concealment and situational awareness come in.
By the way, many BGs train to disarm police and citizens while in prison. It is something that you have be aware of.
very interesting an useful information. Of course the most important part is to maintain the firearm but I was not sure about using deadly force. I personally would be very scared if someone tried to gain control of my firearm because once they got it, I figure I am as good as dead. But on the other hand, someone can be fighting or "wrestling" around with you and that does not really give you the right to use deadly force.
** If BG is just in a strugle with me and I have not been physically harmed and at this point BG does not have my gun so he does not have the means to inflict great bodily harm or death, then I am not sure if using deadly force against him would be justified. If I or anyone here gets it wrong, we go to jail for a long time.
** If BG is just in a strugle with me and I have not been physically harmed and at this point BG does not have my gun so he does not have the means to inflict great bodily harm or death, then I am not sure if using deadly force against him would be justified. If I or anyone here gets it wrong, we go to jail for a long time.
I think one of the underlying questions is, IF you manage to keep the weapon and the BG doesn't run, can you shoot him?
Answer, as always, maybe. IF there is a great disparity or force as in a 250 lb. , in shape BG and a CCW holder who is nursing a broken leg, maybe (probably, depending on the demeanor of the BG).
In a continuing attack IF you are truly in fear of your life, shoot! It is legitimate and is defending against a robbery force and violence, a felony. That , however, is still possibly going to be questioned IF you are in a jurisdiction politically opposed to CCW. The "Rather be tried by twelve than carried by six" rule always applies when all other determining factors fail.
Trust me, it is a really scary thing. As a young patrolman I had two drunken servicemen try to disarm me when I was breaking up a fight outside a bar without backup. Fortunately the two bouncers INSIDE came out and helped me. I had ended up in a fetal position, both hands holding onto my gun and holster (Sam Browne belted service holster with 4" .38 spec S&W) and if they had been real BGs instead of drunken goofballs, God only knows.
Back then, we got more legal instruction than hand to hand but it inspired me to take advantage of the voluntary courses offered on weekends at the Academy. I have never regretted the time spent there.
Answer, as always, maybe. IF there is a great disparity or force as in a 250 lb. , in shape BG and a CCW holder who is nursing a broken leg, maybe (probably, depending on the demeanor of the BG).
In a continuing attack IF you are truly in fear of your life, shoot! It is legitimate and is defending against a robbery force and violence, a felony. That , however, is still possibly going to be questioned IF you are in a jurisdiction politically opposed to CCW. The "Rather be tried by twelve than carried by six" rule always applies when all other determining factors fail.
Trust me, it is a really scary thing. As a young patrolman I had two drunken servicemen try to disarm me when I was breaking up a fight outside a bar without backup. Fortunately the two bouncers INSIDE came out and helped me. I had ended up in a fetal position, both hands holding onto my gun and holster (Sam Browne belted service holster with 4" .38 spec S&W) and if they had been real BGs instead of drunken goofballs, God only knows.
Back then, we got more legal instruction than hand to hand but it inspired me to take advantage of the voluntary courses offered on weekends at the Academy. I have never regretted the time spent there.
That is a valid point. As I posted, the unarmed attacker has to be ACTIVELY attempting to gain control of your weapon. And you have to be able to articulate the facts that support that. I would say that it is a valid assumption that an attacker's purpose in gaining control of your firearm is to use it against you. But, you have to be able to state clearly what actions or circumstances support the belief that your attacker was attempting to arm himself with your weapon.:thumsupvery interesting an useful information. Of course the most important part is to maintain the firearm but I was not sure about using deadly force. I personally would be very scared if someone tried to gain control of my firearm because once they got it, I figure I am as good as dead. But on the other hand, someone can be fighting or "wrestling" around with you and that does not really give you the right to use deadly force.
** If BG is just in a strugle with me and I have not been physically harmed and at this point BG does not have my gun so he does not have the means to inflict great bodily harm or death, then I am not sure if using deadly force against him would be justified. If I or anyone here gets it wrong, we go to jail for a long time.
Understood, but I would add to that a little context...BGs train to disarm cops primarily because they would rather kill than be captured in situations where those are their only options. It's not as if many BGs are initiating empty-hand gun disarm attempts on uniformed LEOs; any that do typically do so out of a hatred for police, not for a robbery motive. I'm fairly certain that most BGs would rather avoid contact with LEOs altogether; I'm guessing they would tend to utilize the same avoidance strategy with visibly armed civilians, particularly since (in my opinion, anyway) the average OCer is likely to have better situational awareness than even your average CCWer, making him a more difficult target.By the way, many BGs train to disarm police and citizens while in prison. It is something that you have be aware of.
GREAT ADVISE. YES A LEVEL 3 RETENTION HOLSTER MAKES IT SUPER DIFFICULT TO REMOVE THE WEAPON FROM A NON NATURAL DRAWING MOTION.If you open carry and you are worried about your gun being taken either don't open carry or get training. You can start by getting and using either a level 2 or 3 retention holster.
Someone attempting to gain possession of your sidearm is worthy of being the recipient of deadly force. Please have Mr. UGLY to apply same with extreme prejudice.
Use strong hand to help retain/restrict your weapon in its holster. Use weak hand to remove BUG from left front pants pocket and terminate threat.
Use strong hand to help retain/restrict your weapon in its holster. Use weak hand to remove BUG from left front pants pocket and terminate threat.
I wrote a paper for the Mass. Patrol Log quarterly back in 93 on handgun retention and attempts to take an officers weapon away from them. This paper became required reading for the Mass. State Police Academy recruits then in session when it was published.This may not be that big of a deal in Florida but more so if you lived in a state like Georgia where OC was legal. I have been in GA where OC was legal and OC'ed myself a few times. I was wondering what people here would do if someone went for your gun. I know, I know, how do they know your carrying. Thats why I said its probably not a big deal in FL, but seriously. I carry OWB with a holster from Little Bear and it does not have a thumb break or anything. What if someone tried to take your firearm away. I dont just mean that they put there hand next to it. I mean there was an all out struggle with yourself. Does anyone here think that they would be justified in using deadly force in that situation? And for people like browine who can kill someone with a toothpick and one hand tied behind there back, dumb it down a little to the average Joe who does not have your same abilities.
There were several points covered on this subject but one of them was that if you have someone trying to take your weapon from you, it should be considered attempted murder as they are not trying to take your firearm for any other reason than to use it against you.
If someone attempts to disarm me while my firearm is holstered, they are going to get shot for their effort with no hesitation after I've secured the firearm with retention skills and can draw and fire. I'm not going to wait to see if he continues the attack, he's getting shot for his efforts before he has the chance to confirm or deny his future intentions, he just tried to murder me with my own gun. The only chance he's got to not get shot is if he backs off with his hands in the air, but by then, he's likely been shot for his efforts anyway.
As Mac mentioned here, the exact skill I trained others in for holster firearm retention skills:
To secure a holstered weapon, I would suggest that you secure the weapon by placing the hand, that is closest to the weapon, directly upon the grip of the weapon or the BG's hand, if it is resting upon the grip of your weapon, and press down.
From that point there are a number of techniques that will allow you to force the BG to relinquish control of, or to thwart his attempt to grab, your weapon
Exactly, and that goes to training in these specific skills.
Brownie
Unfortunately, they don't presently make level three retention holsters for concealed carry that I'm aware of, so it's not an option for those who can't open carry.GREAT ADVISE. YES A LEVEL 3 RETENTION HOLSTER MAKES IT SUPER DIFFICULT TO REMOVE THE WEAPON FROM A NON NATURAL DRAWING MOTION.
SGB, Good thought process.
Brownie
Late to the party, as usual. Good stuff here from the usual suspects.
To the OP, YES, G, a struggle for a gun is a deadly force situation. You fight like your life depends on it, because it does.
Weapon retention training is not rocket surgery, as has been pointed out above (good post, Mac).
You carry a knife in your off-hand pocket or a BUG, right (an ASP is too unwieldly for CQC of this nature)? That's what it is for...to cut the BG off of your sidearm, or shoot his azz.
I had one drunk marine (small case intended in this instance) attempt to relieve me of my Colt from behind while I was on a routine sweep of the base's golf course (his favorite hole was the 19th, apparently). A simple clamp on the weapon and his hand and a sharp spin into the body cracked his wrist and ended any further thoughts of confrontation on his part (the dog in the truck was REALLY mad that he didn't get to play!).
If you carry a weapon, it is your responsibility to maintain control of that weapon.
Hey Brownie...of course they make Level III retention holsters that are concealable. You just have to wear poncho to do it! :rolf
To the OP, YES, G, a struggle for a gun is a deadly force situation. You fight like your life depends on it, because it does.
Weapon retention training is not rocket surgery, as has been pointed out above (good post, Mac).
You carry a knife in your off-hand pocket or a BUG, right (an ASP is too unwieldly for CQC of this nature)? That's what it is for...to cut the BG off of your sidearm, or shoot his azz.
I had one drunk marine (small case intended in this instance) attempt to relieve me of my Colt from behind while I was on a routine sweep of the base's golf course (his favorite hole was the 19th, apparently). A simple clamp on the weapon and his hand and a sharp spin into the body cracked his wrist and ended any further thoughts of confrontation on his part (the dog in the truck was REALLY mad that he didn't get to play!
).If you carry a weapon, it is your responsibility to maintain control of that weapon.
Hey Brownie...of course they make Level III retention holsters that are concealable. You just have to wear poncho to do it! :rolf
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