[MattB.]

I'm sure this topic has been covered before but if so I do not remember reading it and a search of the forums did not pull up an answer.

If you are at work, out shopping or approached on the street and a BG lifts his shirt and flashes a weapon what are you allowed and not allowed to do?

Does the weapon actually have to be out and aimed at a person before you are allowed to draw your weapon and defend yourself?

On another thread it discussed a Dollar General store being robbed and the employees and customers were herded into the back room.

If you were there and robber had lifted his shirt flashing a weapon but did not actually draw it what would you do?

Would you take the chance that he/she would just collect the money and leave and not further escalate the situation

or

would you not take the chance and fire on the assailant knowing at any moment he could change his mind about leaving witnesses and execute everyone.

 

[Orange Boy]

This thread may help.

 

[patrickhenry1776]

I think the first thing that needs to be done is to recognize the fact that what may you do and what should you do are seperate questions.

Starting with may - I think the BGs other actions are what support your may decision. Was their any deliberate move or statement which makes it clear they are a BG and not that someone just accidentially showed their weapon and you are paranoid.

Concerning what to do if it is a BG too many variables which have yet to be laid out. Are other people there? Are they friend, foe or unknown? Is there anyone in the line of fire, including behind the BG? Am I carrry in a manner which allows for a quick deployment of my firearm or is it in an ankle holster because I am on my way to an event and that was the only viable means of having a firearm concealed? The list goes on and on

 

[dkbikes4life4130]

The way I look at it is this. The law states that deadly force may be used if you fear for your life or great bodily harm. It doesnt lay out a specific series of events that must happen. So if the guy lifts a shirt and shows me a gun, then to me that is saying that the BG has threatened my life because he is showing me what he could do to me.

Now wether I actually draw or not will depend on several factors. Mainly could I draw before he could. Aslo whether or not there are people around will influence my decision.

 

[Endangered Species]

How would one know if it's a BG? That's what would determine if you think your life is threatened, not whether his gun is in his hands or not.

You could always draw your own gun and hold it ready (not necessarily aiming it at him), to let him know he's way too slow and incompetent for the line of work he's chosen.

 

[MattB.]

This thread may help.

Thanks Orange thats the thread.

 

[Endangered Species]

I read the other thread, and had a thought. The thought did not come to me right away, but now that I've had it, hopefully it'll stay with me if I'm ever in this situation.

BG says gimme your wallet, lifts shirt to show gun. It sounds like a stupid criminal whose career won't last long. However, my new thought is, "Is his accomplice behind me with his gun/billy club/knife drawn?"

If I'm situationally aware like I try to be, I will know.

 

[patrickhenry1776]

As I said

Are other people there? Are they friend, foe, or unknown

 

[capngeo]

If the guy flashing were known to be a BG.. as in lifting his shirt to show the gun and announcing a robbery.. he'd get 2 COM, and I'd be looking for target #2. Of course the usual mitigating circumstances... bystanders etc would apply.

I pride myself on my situational awareness... one of the reasons that I've made 30 years and several hundred thousand miles on a motorcycle!

 

[MPDC66]

Always remember, "An assault occurs when the VICTIM believes it does IF the victim's reaction is what a REASONABLE person would probablyfeel."

An announcement of a robbery with a weapon flashed IS AN ASSAULT and the opening step of a FORCIBLE FELONY. You have the right to both stand your ground and defend yourself with deadly force since a reasonable person would assume the showing of the gun meant the BG was threatening to shoot you if you don't comply.

Situational awareness, as someone else stated, is another thing altogether. IMHO, you MAY shoot him.

Remember that your decision was based on your assertion that you were in fear of losing your life or great bodily harm. An implied threat with a firearm (or what looks like one to you) coupled with a verbal intent of robbery or other forcible felony, constitutes all the necessary elements, IMHO.

 

[jfl]

If the guy flashing were known to be a BG.. as in lifting his shirt to show the gun and announcing a robbery.. he'd get 2 COM, and I'd be looking for target #2. Of course the usual mitigating circumstances... bystanders etc would apply.

I pride myself on my situational awareness... one of the reasons that I've made 30 years and several hundred thousand miles on a motorcycle!

My thoughts exactly !!!
My reaction is not going in a deep legal analysis of what I may do but the quasi-reflex gut feeling based action to preserve myself.
If I act too quickly, I may go to court, too slowly, I may go to the cemetery.
Guess what's my choice.

And, yes, I fully agree that riding does develop your situational awareness quite a bit, or you don't ride long

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

An announcement of a robbery with a weapon flashed IS AN ASSAULT and the opening step of a FORCIBLE FELONY. You have the right to both stand your ground and defend yourself with deadly force since a reasonable person would assume the showing of the gun meant the BG was threatening to shoot you if you don't comply.

Okay, I understand the point you are making but as a analytical *** that I am, I feel the need to slightly correct you. An assault is the threat to do bodily harm. I believe lifting the shirt revealing a firearm and stating he is robbing the place is not an "assault". If he says that he will shoot you if you dont comply, that is assault or technically aggrivated assault. You also state that it is the "opening step of a forcible felony". It's not the "opening step" it is in fact a forcible felony. Nothing else needs to be done or said for a forcible felony to have occured. Telling someone you are robbing the place is a forcible felony by f.s. even if he did not flash a weapon.

 

[MPDC66]

Okay, I understand the point you are making but as a analytical *** that I am, I feel the need to slightly correct you. An assault is the threat to do bodily harm. I believe lifting the shirt revealing a firearm and stating he is robbing the place is not an "assault". If he says that he will shoot you if you dont comply, that is assault or technically aggrivated assault. You also state that it is the "opening step of a forcible felony". It's not the "opening step" it is in fact a forcible felony. Nothing else needs to be done or said for a forcible felony to have occured. Telling someone you are robbing the place is a forcible felony by f.s. even if he did not flash a weapon.

IF the victim believes that showing the gun is an indication that non compliance will meet with deadly force (reasonable in this circumstance) not only is the showing an assault, it is an element of an armed robbery. Read again, an assaut occurs in the MIND of the victim, NEVER the intent of the BG.

If you show your gun to someone, kidding around and they believe you threatened them, YOU are guilty of ADW, not merely "flashing" or failure to conceal the weapon. In the other person(s) mind, they have been the victim of an assault by you!

The law is pretty universally clear on the elements that constitute assault and this is not a new concept. Trust me on this one!

Another way of looking at it, Robbery with a gun consists of an armed assault and a larceny. The ADW is considered a "Lesser included Offense". Sometimes in a plea agreement, a robber is allowed to plead to the larceny part to avoid the much stiffer penalty for the assault portion of the crime IF no one is actually injured. However, anytime a weapon is shown with a demand for something you have, you have been assaulted in the eyes of the law. Could you say there was no assault if, instead of flashing and showing you the gun he had held it pointed AWAY FROM YOU? No and the same legal principle applies, even though the gun was not pointed directly at you, you understood that showing it meant he might use it.

 

[SGB]

IF the victim believes that showing the gun is an indication that non compliance will meet with deadly force (reasonable in this circumstance) not only is the showing an assault, it is an element of an armed robbery.

:thumsup

 

[waynard]

In the words of Ayoob:

Deadly force is only permissible in a situations of IMMEDIATE, OTHERWISE UNABOIDABLE DANGER OF DEATH OR GREAT BODILY HARM TO ONESELF OR ANOTHER INNOCENT PERSON ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO PROTECT. The presence of that situation is determined by the SIMULTANEOUS presence of three criteria: Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy.

Ability means the attacker has the power to cause death or great bodily harm: that is, to kill or cause crippling injury.

Colorado v. Larry Lindseya furtive movement that is consistent with going for a weapon(and consistent with nothing else) AKA Manifest Intent also suffices to create the ability factor.

Opportunity means the attacker is capable of immediately employing that power. *This more or less deals with the time/distance aspect i.e. a knife wielding man walking towards you from 100 yards away, or a knife wielding man running towards you from 10 yards away.

Jeopardy The opponent must be acting in such a manner that any reasonable, prudent person in your situation would conclude that his intents was to kill or cripple you or the innocent person you deploy your gun to protect.

* But do realize that preclusion will play a factor too. Did you do anything to start a fight? Further escalation? Keep the ball rolling?

Food for thought.
Waynard

 

[Glock23-4-Me]

IF the victim believes that showing the gun is an indication that non compliance will meet with deadly force (reasonable in this circumstance) not only is the showing an assault, it is an element of an armed robbery. Read again, an assaut occurs in the MIND of the victim, NEVER the intent of the BG.

If you show your gun to someone, kidding around and they believe you threatened them, YOU are guilty of ADW, not merely "flashing" or failure to conceal the weapon. In the other person(s) mind, they have been the victim of an assault by you!

The law is pretty universally clear on the elements that constitute assault and this is not a new concept. Trust me on this one!

Another way of looking at it, Robbery with a gun consists of an armed assault and a larceny. The ADW is considered a "Lesser included Offense". Sometimes in a plea agreement, a robber is allowed to plead to the larceny part to avoid the much stiffer penalty for the assault portion of the crime IF no one is actually injured. However, anytime a weapon is shown with a demand for something you have, you have been assaulted in the eyes of the law. Could you say there was no assault if, instead of flashing and showing you the gun he had held it pointed AWAY FROM YOU? No and the same legal principle applies, even though the gun was not pointed directly at you, you understood that showing it meant he might use it.

okay, you got me. I can agree with that.

 

[Rvrctyrngr]

I read the other thread, and had a thought. The thought did not come to me right away, but now that I've had it, hopefully it'll stay with me if I'm ever in this situation.

BG says gimme your wallet, lifts shirt to show gun. It sounds like a stupid criminal whose career won't last long. However, my new thought is, "Is his accomplice behind me with his gun/billy club/knife drawn?"

If I'm situationally aware like I try to be, I will know.

Some good input....some that concerns me greatly.

ES, you have the right thought pattern. Take the one in front of you...but be moving when you do it...where there's one, there's more. Take care of bidness, egress the AO immediately.

Someone shows me a weapon as mentioned in the OP, he's not getting a chance to do anything else....

Other than that, What SGB and MPDC66 said.