[brownie]

Scenario:

You've visited someone in the hospital and are returning to your vehicle in the large parking lot that at that hour has very few vehicles parked there. It was full when you parked where you could find a spot, but now it's sitting out on the open with no vehicles near it.

As you're crossing the lot with good SA, you spot what appears to be a homeless man who appears to be in his 40's or maybe 50's hanging around the peripheral of the lot. As you keep an eye on him, you notice you're now the object of his attention as he's now moving to intercept you in the lot or at your vehicle door.

He has no visible weapons on him, he's not carrying anything that could be used as a weapon expediently against you. Before you can get the car unlocked and enter and lock the doors, he's now within 6 feet of you and closing. He's not threatening you in any verbal way, but it's clear he's not going to give up the chance to ask for and get something from you [ usually money ].

What's your response going to be?

Confront him verbally to go away, back off, leave you alone?
What if he continues to aggress on your person?
Will you allow him to get closer than that 6 feet?
How will you enforce that distance if he moves closer?
Threaten grave bodily harm or death upon him by announcing your armed and will defend yourself if he closes on you?
Can you even draw and fire your sidearm before he can reach you and wrestle for the firearm if he decides to?

Now, he's closed to bad breath distance, you're continuing to tell him to move off/go away and he's ignored you and you've done nothing but verbally warn him to not approach. Is he an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death to your person. If he's not, will you still draw your sidearm and threaten deadly force use if he doesn't back away and leave you alone?

Interested in hearing what others would do based on their strength, infirmities, skills sets or lack thereof.

 

[racer88]

Before you can get the car unlocked and enter and lock the doors, he's now within 6 feet of you and closing.

I've already failed if he's within 6 feet of me. I'm going to verbally intercept him LONG before that in this scenario. I will make it VERY clear and in no uncertain terms that he is NOT to approach me. I won't be waiting until he's 6 feet away.

I'm talking about opening a "line of communications" when he's 20 YARDS away. If he continues, I'm going to take EVASIVE action. That may mean beating him to my car.

If somehow he caught me off guard and gets close, I'd use the car as a barrier... walk around the car so that the car is between me and him while continuing my verbal commands to get away.

Or it may mean turning around and heading back to the hospital. If he gives chase, then the threat is articulable AND reasonable.

Six feet is a major failure, if that's the first interaction.

 

[brownie]

I've already failed if he's within 6 feet of me. I'm going to verbally intercept him LONG before that in this scenario. I will make it VERY clear and in no uncertain terms that he is NOT to approach me. I won't be waiting until he's 6 feet away.

I'm talking about opening a "line of communications" when he's 20 YARDS away. If he continues, I'm going to take EVASIVE action. That may mean beating him to my car.

If somehow he caught me off guard and gets close, I'd use the car as a barrier... walk around the car so that the car is between me and him while continuing my verbal commands to get away.

Or it may mean turning around and heading back to the hospital. If he gives chase, then the threat is articulable AND reasonable.

Six feet is a major failure, if that's the first interaction.

Good plan, but that can be done just as well when he's 6 feet from you also. I like the idea of telling him don't approach from further distances, but that usually doesn't stop them from continuing on their path to intercept. You could be telling him that from 20 yrds to 6 feet just as easily.

I'm not predisposed to run back to the hospital but using the vehicle to keep him at some safer distance is tactically sound.

This scenario is an actual event I experienced in the early 90's. I'll wait for others responses before I explain what my actions were.

 

[racer88]

I like the idea of telling him don't approach from further distances, but that usually doesn't stop them from continuing on their path to intercept. You could be telling him that from 20 yrds to 6 feet just as easily.

If I tell him REPEATEDLY from a longer distance, that works in my favor as to having a REASONABLE fear of intended harm (Imminence). Again... if I've waited until 6 feet before my first attempt to verbally "head him off at the pass," then I have failed MISERABLY, and I'm starting WAY behind the curve.

This scenario is an actual event I experienced in the early 90's. I'll wait for others responses before I explain what my actions were.

I walked to my car in that very kind of parking lot at that very time of night, literally countless times during my daughter's battle with leukemia. I don't recall running into anyone, but this hospital was in a very bad neighborhood. My SA was always on VERY high alert during those walks to the back parking lot.

That said, I've been approached at gas stations countless times. I've been successful in verbally repelling them every time. But it's from a much farther distance than 6 feet. I don't wait until they get that close. Ever.

Recently, I was approached at the gas station. And he did not stop when I first told him to stop. So, I moved around the car (opposite of his position) and told him again to not approach me. He "got it" that time and went on to the next guy who let him get within the literal "bad breath" / touching distance.

 

[joecarry]

I think I’d start the conversation with “what’s up bud…” followed by “nah,… I don’t have an money…sorry…”

If he‘s not visibly armed and nothing in his hands then I’m not about to try and draw a firearm on him. I might use my car or a light pole or something else as a barrier between us but if not I’m not opposed to standing my ground either. At some point he has to make the next move and then it‘s most likely going to be hands on if he takes it there. His choice, after all it is a hosptial parking lot. One of us might need the ED before the night’s over.

 

[FfNJGTFO]

As @racer88 stated, my goal would be to initiate conversation well before he reached the 6ft. circle, and to have the SA to make that happen. I also like circling around the vehicle. Hoepfuly, I can hit my "panic button" on the key fob and get the horn going to see what that might do. I would not draw unless it was clear that he had some weapon or means to attack me. I just hope I'd have enough time.

But yeah, the key to this scenario I think is having enough advanced SA to start a course of action long before he reached my 6ft. inner circle.

 

[racer88]

I think I’d start the conversation with “what’s up bud…” followed by “nah,… I don’t have an money…sorry…”

I do not enable their "interview" (see "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker) with such niceties. I get right down to business with a very emphatic, "STOP!" or "Do not come any closer!"

It works.

 

[racer88]

As @racer88 stated, my goal would be to initiate conversation well before he reached the 6ft. circle

To be clear, I am not "initiating a conversation." I am ending it before it begins with a command. My command is not up for discussion or "conversation."

I am not interested in conversations with strangers in transitional spaces. EVER. Especially in a remote corner of a dark parking lot.

I take such encounters very seriously. I do not **** around with strangers in transitional spaces. I make it super-clear that I am not interested in ANYthing they have to say to me or ask me.

I've had many such encounters, and none have gotten close to me. The strong verbal commands work. If it makes me seem like an a**hole, then I did it right. And again... it works!

 

[BeerHunter]

Scenario:

You've visited someone in the hospital and are returning to your vehicle in the large parking lot that at that hour has very few vehicles parked there. It was full when you parked where you could find a spot, but now it's sitting out on the open with no vehicles near it.

As you're crossing the lot with good SA, you spot what appears to be a homeless man who appears to be in his 40's or maybe 50's hanging around the peripheral of the lot. As you keep an eye on him, you notice you're now the object of his attention as he's now moving to intercept you in the lot or at your vehicle door.

He has no visible weapons on him, he's not carrying anything that could be used as a weapon expediently against you. Before you can get the car unlocked and enter and lock the doors, he's now within 6 feet of you and closing. He's not threatening you in any verbal way, but it's clear he's not going to give up the chance to ask for and get something from you [ usually money ].

What's your response going to be?

Confront him verbally to go away, back off, leave you alone?
What if he continues to aggress on your person?
Will you allow him to get closer than that 6 feet?
How will you enforce that distance if he moves closer?
Threaten grave bodily harm or death upon him by announcing your armed and will defend yourself if he closes on you?
Can you even draw and fire your sidearm before he can reach you and wrestle for the firearm if he decides to?

Now, he's closed to bad breath distance, you're continuing to tell him to move off/go away and he's ignored you and you've done nothing but verbally warn him to not approach. Is he an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death to your person. If he's not, will you still draw your sidearm and threaten deadly force use if he doesn't back away and leave you alone?

Interested in hearing what others would do based on their strength, infirmities, skills sets or lack thereof.

I'm with racer here; I'm not letting him get within 6 ft or entertaining a conversation if I can at all help it. To answer your scenario questions:
Q1: Confront him verbally to go away, back off, leave you alone?
A1: Yes, well before he's within 6 ft of my person, car, etc., I will confront him verbally in as forceful of a tone as I can muster to "Do not approach any closer, back off, and leave me alone" WHILE I assume a defensive/bladed posture ready to execute a scoop draw.

Q2: What if he continues to aggress on your person?
A2: He's already been warned and continued to approach despite my warnings not to, then I'm now in reasonable fear of imminent threat and I can articulate that I he has nefarious intent and I'm in reasonable fear of GBH or death!

Q3: Will you allow him to get closer than that 6 feet?
A3: See above.

Q4: How will you enforce that distance if he moves closer?
A4: I'm now putting my vehicle between him and me and as I've already been convinced I'm facing imminent threat of GBH, I'll be at least placing my hand on my firearm and getting ready to repel boarders, if not drawing and issuing one last warning!

Q5: Threaten grave bodily harm or death upon him by announcing your armed and will defend yourself if he closes on you?
A5: If he continued closing the distance, then I can articulate that he's met the definition of an "Imminent threat" of GBH or death to me.

Q6: Can you even draw and fire your sidearm before he can reach you and wrestle for the firearm if he decides to?
A6: That's the reason I will do my best to prevent him from getting anywhere near 6 ft of my person and if he has continued to close after being warned not to approach any closer, knowing I'm alone in an empty parking lot with an imminent threat approaching, then yes, as I state above, I already have a reasonable fear of imminent threat of GBH or death, I am in a place I'm lawfully allowed to be, and have no duty to retreat in Florida, then I will draw my firearm and if he hasn't already stopped, fire on the attacker, COM until the threat changes shape or catches fire!

Immediately after the encounter, I will be draw my cell phone to 1) call the cavalry and report the incident, and then 2) call my attorney.

 

[Rick McC.]

Scenario:

You've visited someone in the hospital and are returning to your vehicle in the large parking lot that at that hour has very few vehicles parked there. It was full when you parked where you could find a spot, but now it's sitting out on the open with no vehicles near it.

As you're crossing the lot with good SA, you spot what appears to be a homeless man who appears to be in his 40's or maybe 50's hanging around the peripheral of the lot. As you keep an eye on him, you notice you're now the object of his attention as he's now moving to intercept you in the lot or at your vehicle door.

He has no visible weapons on him, he's not carrying anything that could be used as a weapon expediently against you. Before you can get the car unlocked and enter and lock the doors, he's now within 6 feet of you and closing. He's not threatening you in any verbal way, but it's clear he's not going to give up the chance to ask for and get something from you [ usually money ].

What's your response going to be?

Confront him verbally to go away, back off, leave you alone?
What if he continues to aggress on your person?
Will you allow him to get closer than that 6 feet?
How will you enforce that distance if he moves closer?
Threaten grave bodily harm or death upon him by announcing your armed and will defend yourself if he closes on you?
Can you even draw and fire your sidearm before he can reach you and wrestle for the firearm if he decides to?

Now, he's closed to bad breath distance, you're continuing to tell him to move off/go away and he's ignored you and you've done nothing but verbally warn him to not approach. Is he an imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death to your person. If he's not, will you still draw your sidearm and threaten deadly force use if he doesn't back away and leave you alone?

Interested in hearing what others would do based on their strength, infirmities, skills sets or lack thereof.

I’ve had that very thing happen on several occasions, and I’ve handled it with a command voice advising “stop; don’t come any closer,” that they’ll get no $$ from me, and “you need to move along!”
Only once have I needed to move my hand to 3:00 on the outside of my shirt; which caused an instant retreat. I didn't brandish any weapons, or place my hand directly on my carry gun.

I won’t let anyone get too close (still farther away that six feet), and I’ll maintain distance from them, even if I have to play “circle the truck.”

I won’t unlock the doors if anyone is in proximity, and only unlock the drivers door when I do. I don’t have it set to unlock all the doors on entry (unless I press the fob button a second time in quick succession).

 

[Coops]

I think I’d start the conversation with “what’s up bud…” followed by “nah,… I don’t have an money…sorry…”

If he‘s not visibly armed and nothing in his hands then I’m not about to try and draw a firearm on him. I might use my car or a light pole or something else as a barrier between us but if not I’m not opposed to standing my ground either. At some point he has to make the next move and then it‘s most likely going to be hands on if he takes it there. His choice, after all it is a hosptial parking lot. One of us might need the ED before the night’s over.

You cannot draw on him because hopefully, your gun is in the car. You are not allowed to carry in a hospital.
Technically, a hospital that provides mental health services. But that point is moot since all hospitals provide mental health help of some kind.

 

[Rick McC.]

You cannot draw on him because hopefully, your gun is in the car. You are not allowed to carry in a hospital.
Technically, a hospital that provides mental health services. But that point is moot since all hospitals provide mental health help of some kind.

I always carry in the hospitals here, and I don’t accept that “moot point” at all. I do so for the same reason that I always carry at Dr’s. offices; their parking lots are target rich environments, with lots of sick and/or injured people coming and going who probably aren’t at their best in defending themselves.

Now; if they decide to have armed guards in golf carts picking up and returning patients and visitors to their cars…

 

[Caleb]

I’m with the folks saying to start the Stop command a lot sooner than 6ft. If verbals don’t stop him/her from approaching then, I’m looking for something to be in between us (car, pillar, stairs, ect…). If that doesn’t work and they are still trying to get to me, I’m probably drawing at low ready while calling 911 or at least pretending to (maybe it’ll make then think twice?). This has only happened to me at gas stations and loud aggressive commands usually work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[brownie]

So here's what happened one summer evening just before twilight in the lot.

At the time I was in the habit of carrying a snub in my jacket pocket into the hospital, leaving the other [ both back pocket carried ] in the caddy. I saw him, he saw me see him, I kept walking at my pace to the caddy.

When he got to about 6 feet, I asked him what he wanted. The snub was pointed in on him at that time as I'd put the hand in the jacket pocket as I turned. He wasn't rushing to meet me at any time, just meandering my way at a normal pace.

He said he could use anything I could spare as he hadn't eaten in a few days. I asked him if he knew where the diner was around the block and he said yes but he wasn't allowed in there any more unless he was going to buy something. Told him I'd walk over with him and buy him a meal if wanted. He jumped at the chance. Humble, appreciative, grateful.

I bought him the meal [ under 10.00, paid for a second meal whenever he wanted to come in for it later and handed the waitress a 10.00 as a tip. Walked back to the lot. In conversation he admitted he had to stay by himself away from other vagrants as he'd recently been assaulted by a few taking what he had.

Hmm, he should be looked at. Tell him to meet me the next morning at 10am I had something for him. That morning I called the Fenway Health clinic and spoke to a contact of mine, explained the situation, she said bring him in. So I did, and they ended up attending his injuries and found him a bed in a sister facility.

Just down on his luck.

 

[OHEng]

Given the scenario, just visited someone in a hospital, that means I'm not carrying a firearm. All hospitals in my neck of the woods have mental health facilities within them and are marked as such with signage. Two of the three main hospitals have guards 24/7 at the visitor's entrance and they use metal detection wands on anyone entering. You aren't getting in with a firearm on your person.

But I always carry a decent sized folder, lately it's the Honey Badger Ultratec on the strong side, and Gryptilian on the weak side. My key fob is on a metal carabiner that has a 5" long braided leather strip hanging from it that will leave one helluva welt if struck with it. So I wouldn't be completely disarmed.

If I saw this person coming toward me and it didn't appear it was much more than someone trying to mooch some change, then I'd engage verbally well beyond 6 ft and asked what he wanted. Money? I have none on me, only plastic, sorry. I would not head for the door of my truck but would instead head for the back tailgate while hitting the unlock button on the fob. I'd do that because if the man's intentions are more than I expect, I don't want a fight while I'm half stuffed into the door of a vehicle. Opening my tailgate gives me immediate access to a tool bag with many handy self-defense weapons of opportunity, like large pliers and a pipe wrench. I also almost always have a few feet of 2 x 4 back there, and that's another option.

Also, one press of the fob and my horn is blowing and the exterior lights are flashing and they'll stay that way until I turn them off. Could be an option to attract attention or something I could use as a temporary diversion depending on needs of the moment. If words failed to dissuade him, my goal would be to get him back away from me far enough for me to get in the truck and close/lock the doors. From there I'm leaving, either backing out of the space or driving forward up over the curb and out of there. Trucks do that rather well, and unless he's strong enough to hold back 7,000 lbs, he's getting left behind.

Minimum conflict is the object, if force needed, just enough to back him up or put him on the ground while I GTFO. No need to do legal battles over a confrontation with a homeless dude.

 

[FfNJGTFO]

So here's what happened one summer evening just before twilight in the lot.

At the time I was in the habit of carrying a snub in my jacket pocket into the hospital, leaving the other [ both back pocket carried ] in the caddy. I saw him, he saw me see him, I kept walking at my pace to the caddy.

When he got to about 6 feet, I asked him what he wanted. The snub was pointed in on him at that time as I'd put the hand in the jacket pocket as I turned. He wasn't rushing to meet me at any time, just meandering my way at a normal pace.

He said he could use anything I could spare as he hadn't eaten in a few days. I asked him if he knew where the diner was around the block and he said yes but he wasn't allowed in there any more unless he was going to buy something. Told him I'd walk over with him and buy him a meal if wanted. He jumped at the chance. Humble, appreciative, grateful.

I bought him the meal [ under 10.00, paid for a second meal whenever he wanted to come in for it later and handed the waitress a 10.00 as a tip. Walked back to the lot. In conversation he admitted he had to stay by himself away from other vagrants as he'd recently been assaulted by a few taking what he had.

Hmm, he should be looked at. Tell him to meet me the next morning at 10am I had something for him. That morning I called the Fenway Health clinic and spoke to a contact of mine, explained the situation, she said bring him in. So I did, and they ended up attending his injuries and found him a bed in a sister facility.

Just down on his luck.

ISTR you mentioning a similar scenario where you tried to help the person, and for a while he accepted the help (he was also ex military) but refused the help later on and disappeared or something. Was this the same scenario?

 

[Deptydog90]

I haven't been in a similar situation (just lucky, I guess) but I iften encounter panhandlers when entering or exiting a convience store. There is one nearby that someone permanently installed on the sidewalk within 5 feet of the door. I NEVER park near them and always lock my doors upon exiting my vehicle. (Complaints to store management have had no effect thus far) This has been the only situation that regularly makes me nervous and my spidey senses are on high alert every time.

 

[brownie]

ISTR you mentioning a similar scenario where you tried to help the person, and for a while he accepted the help (he was also ex military) but refused the help later on and disappeared or something. Was this the same scenario?

No, that was out here and I set him up with a tent and bag in a homeless camp. He disappeared within a few days, all the gear was gone.

I've helped my share of homeless people over the years, probably because of the career and being involved with them, some rising to a personal level. Sat with a group of them for 3 nights in an alley in chinatown waiting to see one particular person walk by on the street. Dressed in ratty clothes, bottle in a bag, a few dollars to help my fellow unfortunates make another run and if you're more than accepted into their group.

Working the inner city projects [ combat zones ], I helped a few out of their troubles in return for information [ more state help, gov grant money, etc ]. Some of the real street bums [ alcoholics 24/7 who panhandled all day ] were constantly abused by younger minority men as amusement. Befriend one of them, they are a wealth of information about numbers, what corners belong to what gangs, leaders, descriptions, and even their routines at times. They were potential job resources, at the street level. Invaluable, but when in Rome, ya had to play a roman as much as possible to gain trust, slow process but in terms of months when you're in there every day.

 

[mike1956]

I'm likely to hand him a fiver and tell him to have a nice day. Much easier than firing up the smack talker and ass kicker.

 

[OHEng]

I've done that too, Mike, but it's not my norm. Years ago when I worked in a fairly large city, I used to carry a book of matches with a $10 bill attached to it with a rubber band. I did that because I had this stupid idea that it would have enough mass to be able to toss it should I need to dump some cash and run in a bad situation. It sat for years in my left front pocket unused until early one evening some yutes (four of them, early 20s) chose me as their target of opportunity.

They wanted to "talk to me." I grabbed the matchbook and said words to the effect of I'd like to stay and chat but I had someplace important to be, so how about I spring for some beers and maybe we could meet up some other time. Then I tossed it about halfway between us, with us being maybe 25 feet apart. All four sets of eyes went right to that ten-spot and I got my arse out of there, down the street, and into my car while they went for the cash. I couldn't believe it - it worked!

I wouldn't expect it to work today, I'm much older and lot slower. They'd take the ten spot then run me down before I made it to the vehicle. Not bad enough to get mugged, but knowing I paid them ahead of time would just be too humiliating for me.