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Discussion Starter #1
As Americans, our freedom was won using firearms. To protect our hard won freedom, our founding fathers created a Constitution and the Bill of Rights to protect us.

The Bill of Rights were introduced by James Madison to the First United States Congress in 1791 and included the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution.

The Bill of Rights is essentially a list of limitations on the power of the United States Federal government.

The Bill of Rights protects our God given rights of liberty and property including freedom of speech, a free press, free assembly, and free association, as well as the right to keep and bear arms.

According to the 2nd Amendment, we have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. And that RIGHT shall not be INFRINGED!

Any politician who creates laws to take away our 2nd Amendment rights or to infringe upon them is a blatant traitor to the Constitution and to our Bill of Rights. Those individuals should be removed from office.

Anti-gun politicians through their distorted legislation consistently violate our freedom and impose the enslavement of excessive government on our backs.

Anti-gun = Anti-American
 

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While I agree with most of your comments, I would like to modify your thread title:

Anti-Gun = Anti-Freedom


You have only to look at Russia (formerly the USSR), China, Venezuela, etc. to see that freedom stops where a government gun barrel begins.
 

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As Americans, our freedom was won using firearms. To protect our hard won freedom, our founding fathers created a Constitution and the Bill of Rights to protect us.

The Bill of Rights were introduced by James Madison to the First United States Congress in 1791 and included the first ten amendments to the United States Constitution.

The Bill of Rights is essentially a list of limitations on the power of the United States Federal government.

The Bill of Rights protects our God given rights of liberty and property including freedom of speech, a free press, free assembly, and free association, as well as the right to keep and bear arms.

According to the 2nd Amendment, we have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. And that RIGHT shall not be INFRINGED!

Any politician who creates laws to take away our 2nd Amendment rights or to infringe upon them is a blatant traitor to the Constitution and to our Bill of Rights. Those individuals should be removed from office.

Anti-gun politicians through their distorted legislation consistently violate our freedom and impose the enslavement of excessive government on our backs.

Anti-gun = Anti-American
I tried an argument like this on my brother-law and basically he said that none of these rights are complete. We as a people have put laws in place to limit our own freedoms. When I said it was the government he quickly asked if the second amendment allowed a five year old to have a gun. I said when he becomes legal at 18. That's when my brother-in law said show me where in the bill of rights it says your get these rights at 18. So then he says if it's ok to limit your rights by your age for the good of the community why can't a city, like NY, limit your rights of where you can exercise them for the good of the community? Liberals with an education really concern me.
 

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I can agree with that.
 

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My rebuttal to the 5yr old argument would be:

"The consitution talks about the rights of men, men at that time were used to refer to any adult regardless of gender, thus the document from it's preface was talking about the rights of grown individuals. Our age of majority (maturity) at 18 places the black line of being a man and not a child at that exact point. That said, do you have any complaints if we were to change the age of majority, say to twelve?"

More than likely he'd go off on some tangent about how 12-year olds have no emotional maturity and lack experience to make good decisions...just showing his own issues with it.

The age of majority laws restrict a child's rights, so that the parent has a bit more power in shaping them into a proper human being. Now, in his/her parent's presence, a 5 year old can shoot a gun...that is as right as it should be, so the parent can instill proper and safe handling concepts to the child. Children are not adults, thus should not be bound to the same level of responsiblity as an adult (the lack of rights go hand-in-hand). To warp that into a gun control argument just shows a failure to understand the mechanics of these laws.
 

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+1 - obviously a society needs to make the determination of exactly when the rights, responsibilities and priviliges of adulthood are levvied upon an individual. IMO, the argument of the 5-year old gunslinger is simply one of last resort, when no other valid arguments remain.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
While I agree with most of your comments, I would like to modify your thread title:

Anti-Gun = Anti-Freedom


You have only to look at Russia (formerly the USSR), China, Venezuela, etc. to see that freedom stops where a government gun barrel begins.
How about Anti-Gun = Anti-American and Anti-Freedom?

In my eyes, America and freedom are synonymous and cannot be separated. Any efforts to violate our Constitution and our Bill of Rights by politicians is a violation and an act of a traitor.
 

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I'm as pro-gun as anyone, but I think it takes it a little far to say that anti-gun=anti-American. I don't think that being a patriotic American is anywhere near such a one-dimensional thing that it can be reduced to an equation like this.

The biggest problem with a simple equation like a-g=a-A is that you end up just dismissing the opposing view, rather than actually considering it, trying to understand it, and trying to see what truly motivates it. Without understanding the viewpoint and what motivates it, you cannot effectively fight against it. That, I think, is one of the problems that we in the pro-gun camp have. We very often do not effectively argue against the anti-gun attitude because we refuse to consider that there might be something there that requires an effective argument.

It's like the abortion debate in many ways. Discussions about abortion almost always go nowhere, because neither side is really willing to listen to, and seriously consider, the viewpoint of the other side. It always devolves into a contest to see who can chant their trite slogans the loudest and the longest. Not an effective way to win people over!
 

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I'm as pro-gun as anyone, but I think it takes it a little far to say that anti-gun=anti-American. I don't think that being a patriotic American is anywhere near such a one-dimensional thing that it can be reduced to an equation like this.

The biggest problem with a simple equation like a-g=a-A is that you end up just dismissing the opposing view, rather than actually considering it, trying to understand it, and trying to see what truly motivates it. Without understanding the viewpoint and what motivates it, you cannot effectively fight against it. That, I think, is one of the problems that we in the pro-gun camp have. We very often do not effectively argue against the anti-gun attitude because we refuse to consider that there might be something there that requires an effective argument.

It's like the abortion debate in many ways. Discussions about abortion almost always go nowhere, because neither side is really willing to listen to, and seriously consider, the viewpoint of the other side. It always devolves into a contest to see who can chant their trite slogans the loudest and the longest. Not an effective way to win people over!
In my view, when one is anti-gun therefore won't own one, I don't have a problem with that. It is when one tries to impose that upon others by saying "and you can't have one either" is where I object.
 

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I have a real problem with anyone who doesn't see it as a problem when the government ignores the Constitution in general and the Bill of Rights in particular. Even if the item being ignored isn't of special interest to the person.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I'm as pro-gun as anyone, but I think it takes it a little far to say that anti-gun=anti-American. I don't think that being a patriotic American is anywhere near such a one-dimensional thing that it can be reduced to an equation like this.

The biggest problem with a simple equation like a-g=a-A is that you end up just dismissing the opposing view, rather than actually considering it, trying to understand it, and trying to see what truly motivates it. Without understanding the viewpoint and what motivates it, you cannot effectively fight against it. That, I think, is one of the problems that we in the pro-gun camp have. We very often do not effectively argue against the anti-gun attitude because we refuse to consider that there might be something there that requires an effective argument.

It's like the abortion debate in many ways. Discussions about abortion almost always go nowhere, because neither side is really willing to listen to, and seriously consider, the viewpoint of the other side. It always devolves into a contest to see who can chant their trite slogans the loudest and the longest. Not an effective way to win people over!

You are obviously not "as pro-gun as anyone" as you claim. Fact, not as much as me.

I have heard just about every anti-gun argument ever made, and they always fall apart or wind up infringing upon our rights. If you have ever tried to change even one persons attitude, you will discover it often has nothing to do with logic or intelligence. Many people have illogical core beliefs that nothing will change.

The equation I gave was never intended to win over people to a pro-gun side. It was to highlight a truth. The United States is a nation by design of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, freedom and America cannot be separated from that. If anyone attempts to do that, they are violating the very premise of what it means to be an American.

Patriotism can mean many things to many people. But genuine freedom and liberty as defined by our founding fathers, as written in their documents, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, is truly what it means to be an American.

If you read closely what I said, "Any politician who creates laws to take away our 2nd Amendment rights or to infringe upon them is a blatant traitor to the Constitution and to our Bill of Rights. Those individuals should be removed from office" you will understand that my equation of Anti-gun = Anti-American was referring to those actions made that infringe upon our God given rights as put forth in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

My focus is on the action as much as the person. To be Anti-gun is to be against American principles. It really is black and white. The anti-gun camp is seriously delusional, and many of them are more international citizens than they are American citizens.
 

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I agree with Rich7553. I don't want someone who doesn't agree with my constitutionally guaranteed freedom to tell me what I can and can't do. That being said, I stop short of saying someone who is anti-gun = anti-American. If you really believe in freedom, not just your particular views, you have to understand that free people have the right to be wrong. The vehement anti-2A people believe you and I are wrong about 2A and want to deny our freedom to exercise it. It's when their being wrong impacts the rights of others that we have a problem. There are people who love this great country every bit as much as you or I that have opposing view on many issues. It doesn't make them anti-American. Rocketsteve said it best, anti-American = anti-freedom.
 

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I agree with Rich7553. I don't want someone who doesn't agree with my constitutionally guaranteed freedom to tell me what I can and can't do. That being said, I stop short of saying someone who is anti-gun = anti-American. If you really believe in freedom, not just your particular views, you have to understand that free people have the right to be wrong. The vehement anti-2A people believe you and I are wrong about 2A and want to deny our freedom to exercise it. It's when their being wrong impacts the rights of others that we have a problem. There are people who love this great country every bit as much as you or I that have opposing view on many issues. It doesn't make them anti-American. Rocketsteve said it best, anti-GUN = anti-freedom.
Fixed it for ya. :thumsup
 

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Thanks, rocketsteve, sorry to paraphrase your quote beyond recognition. :bowdown

The point I was making is that forces that are anti-American are anti-freedom. Look at North Korea, Iran or non-state entities like the Taliban that oppose the freedoms held sacred by Americans.

LC
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I agree with Rich7553. I don't want someone who doesn't agree with my constitutionally guaranteed freedom to tell me what I can and can't do. That being said, I stop short of saying someone who is anti-gun = anti-American. If you really believe in freedom, not just your particular views, you have to understand that free people have the right to be wrong. The vehement anti-2A people believe you and I are wrong about 2A and want to deny our freedom to exercise it. It's when their being wrong impacts the rights of others that we have a problem. There are people who love this great country every bit as much as you or I that have opposing view on many issues. It doesn't make them anti-American. Rocketsteve said it best, anti-American = anti-freedom.
Yes, people have the right to believe, think, and be anti-gun. It is when they impose it on others that it becomes a problem. By anti-gun I am referring to the activists who are attacking our rights at every turn. If you follow the NRA literature, you can see all the anti-gun battles that are constantly raging. The anti-gun activists are the one's I deeply resent and call anti-American. They are anti-American because they are attempting to destroy our basic right to defend ourselves, and they are defying the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
 

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You are obviously not "as pro-gun as anyone" as you claim. Fact, not as much as me.
Pretty presumptuous, considering that you don't even know me.

You are entitled to believe what you want, but I believe that there is far more to being a patriotic American than can be expressed in a simple, four-word equation.
 

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My rebuttal to the 5yr old argument would be:

"The consitution talks about the rights of men, men at that time were used to refer to any adult regardless of gender, thus the document from it's preface was talking about the rights of grown individuals. Our age of majority (maturity) at 18 places the black line of being a man and not a child at that exact point. That said, do you have any complaints if we were to change the age of majority, say to twelve?"

More than likely he'd go off on some tangent about how 12-year olds have no emotional maturity and lack experience to make good decisions...just showing his own issues with it.

The age of majority laws restrict a child's rights, so that the parent has a bit more power in shaping them into a proper human being. Now, in his/her parent's presence, a 5 year old can shoot a gun...that is as right as it should be, so the parent can instill proper and safe handling concepts to the child. Children are not adults, thus should not be bound to the same level of responsiblity as an adult (the lack of rights go hand-in-hand). To warp that into a gun control argument just shows a failure to understand the mechanics of these laws.
+1 on this. The Constitution provides protections to the adult citizens of the country. Your friend is grasping at straws. I have heard many arguments against the 2nd Amendment and his may be one of the weakest!
 

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+1 on this. The Constitution provides protections to the adult citizens of the country. Your friend is grasping at straws. I have heard many arguments against the 2nd Amendment and his may be one of the weakest!
+1. :thumsup
 
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