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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok say middle of the night you hear your front door open you get out of bed grab you firearm from the night stand you come out of your room and find the clown trying to get your tv, dvd what ever.
at this point my wife is already on the phone with 911 is it leagle for you to hold someone at gun point untill the police arrive? i know i cant shoot him if he tries to escape but can i restain him by overpowering him till the police arrive? i know there are alot of varribles in this just wondering other people might do.
 

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My first question is ------ how do you plan to overpower him and restrain him with a gun in your hand?

Put the gun down first? --- bad idea

If I come out of the bedroom with gun after just waking up, I'm as I was born, no place to "holster" the gun, so I'm not going to try to overpower him physically.

I'm likely to keep him at gunpoint, and if he has the smarts to walk out the way he came in with his hands where I can see them at all times and not show he wants to be aggressive, he walks. If he makes any play but to comply with "get down on your belly, fingers interlaced behind your head" or very unthreatening slowly extricates himself, everyone wins.

He gets froggy, who knows, but he's got to make the first move with a gun pointed at him. I'm not going to try to physically restrain him, I have the upper hand where my wife and my safety is concerned and it's going to stay that way until he leaves or the cops get there.

Brownie
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
good point i would not put the gun down or try to restrain him. would i face any leagle actions for holding the person at gun point in my home or pulling the gun out if he decides to leave?
 

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As I mentioned, you can command him to comply to lay down and be quiet on the floor, but he doesn't want to, I'd let him leave as long as he did nothing to make me feel my life was in danger.

That means if he reaches into his pocket for anything against my commands not to do so, he will likely get shot for his efforts, no matter what his intentions in doing so. He doesn't comply and KEEP HIS HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM AT ALL TIMES PER MY ORDERS TO DO SO [ hands are the threat, they can access and use weapons against me ] he's putting me in fear of his accessing a weapon and using it against me. He turns away from me without my being able to see his hands, he better not make any furtive gestures, movements or HE WILL GET SHOT.

If he complies and just walks out, I'll not try to detain him. If he leaves, he's no longer a threat. The longer you can keep him under control and yourself and family members safe with your firearm, the better the chances the police will be able to apprehend him.

or pulling the gun out if he decides to leave?

My gun is already out, in my hands and at low ready when I leave the bedroom. Upon seeing an intruder, it's leveled on him/her immediately and stays there until such time as he is no longer considered a threat [ there are many variables that can be discussed which would constitute him/her no longer being considered a threat including having been shot multiple times [ I'm not firing once and see what happens, but firing 2-3 rapid shots COM and continue to assess his demeanor while ready to send 2-3 more immediately. My muzzle follows his COM throughout the process, no matter where his body moves to voluntarily or involuntarily.

Like I've mentioned, their actions dictate mine. No more or less.

Brownie
 

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Interesting question.

Florida law states that somebody who breaks into your home is automatically assumed to be a threat*. You are authorized to act in self-defense against the intruder and you may not be prosecuted for it. My guess is that would include having him sit down and shut up or even shooting him if he tries to flee.

I wouldn't advise trying to shoot him if he flees. The neighbors may not like somebody who did that and rugs can be very costly to replace if you hit him.

My plan would be to shoot if he was close or if there were more than one. If it is a single intruder at a distance, try to control him.

*http://www.gunlaws.com/FloridaCastleDoctrine.htm
It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.
 

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flccnp. Great article/post. I've been trying to cut through all of the legalise to get to the real meaning and the link to the article you posted sums it up very nicely. Thanks.
 

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I can't think of anything to add to this question. I would do exactly the same thing as Brownie described. Reading his answer was just about word for word what I would have said.
 

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I was getting kind of worried after reading the first 4 posts, but flccnp's post straightened out my worries, which were i have already decided if someone breaks into my house at night while i am sleeping, and i am able to they are going to be shot multiple times with no forethought. If he is in my "castle" and i did not let him in, then he is a threat, whether armed or not.
 

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Because the law allows you to do something literally, does not mean you can necessarily be indiscrimante in your actions.

Some drunk 19 year old who has the wrong house, his key doesn't fit the lock, he jimmy's the window in the living room and enters the house. You hear him come through and get up to investigate.

Seeing someone in your livingroom, you immediately blast him------ interesting situation develops when the cops get there.

How about establishing intent, being prudent and cautious in your actions? Anyone got an opinion on shooting anyone found in your home indiscriminately bacause the law says you can?

Anyone see a problem with the possibilities that abound as to someone's intent when they entered? There have been cases where drinks have been shot entering the wrong house throughout the country. No intent to harm or steal/burglar, mistakes are made by idiots all the time.

Brownie
 

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I think laws very by state but florida law clearly states:

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle;
 

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If I come out of the bedroom with gun after just waking up, I'm as I was born, no place to "holster" the gun, so I'm not going to try to overpower him physically. Brownie
TMI - that is my teenage daughter talk for "Too Much Info"

Um, thanks for the visual there, Brownie.

MamaBear
 

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776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle;
_________________________________________________________

The presumption in the statute does not necessarily/automatically mean you can be indiscrimate in your actions. The law was not written with the idea it was a license to kill everyone not invited in to your home.

These laws are written to provide it's citizens with relief and to insulate the resident/homeowner from aggresive DA's who might in the future or have in the past charged homeowners with criminal actions while defending themselves in the home. As you are now by law presumed to be in fear or death or great bodily harm, you'll still be questioned about your mindset, the actions of the intruder that warranted your shooting him, etc. The law does not prevent the police investigating the circumstances that led to the shooting of another.

To think that when the cops show up, they'll just call the meat wagon and cart him off because he was another inturder because of the statute cited is to be uninformed. You are presumed in fear, you'll still be questioned about the circumstances surrounding the shooting and could be charged.

Just something to think about.

Brownie
 

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In Florida, someone who has broken into your home can be shot for any reason, or no reason at all. No justification or proof of intent is required as the presumption that they intend to do you harm is inherent in the statute. Not that it's necessarily the best action to take every time, but it's certainly allowed from a legal standpoint.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
i have a question about the deffinition of forcable. i have a bad habbit of sometimes not locking my door when im at home. if i have not invited the person inside they let themselfs in not by breaking the door or picking the lock is that still considered forcable enty

i know i know always lock the door
 

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i have a question about the deffinition of forcable. i have a bad habbit of sometimes not locking my door when im at home. if i have not invited the person inside they let themselfs in not by breaking the door or picking the lock is that still considered forcable enty

i know i know always lock the door
I think in that case you have to fall back on the regular self-defense rules. If the actions of the invader lead you to believe you are in danger of imminent death or serious bodily harm you can act in self-defense. You do not have a legal obligation to retreat.

These are the laws as I read them in Florida. Other states, other laws. When in doubt, ask an attorney.
 

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An unlocked door is not an invitation to enter, an open door is an invitation.

In Florida, someone who has broken into your home can be shot for any reason, or no reason at all.

I don't think you want to be the test case that sets precedence, and I'd caution those making such statements to be careful in how their mindset is presented here as it could come back and bite you on the rear later.

Presumed, presumptions do not make anything written in stone or some absolute.

For instance, does anyone here from Fla. think they can shoot an intruder in the back who is unarmed and attempting to leave when you shoot him?

He's a felon by the act of intrusion, but even the cops can't shoot a fleeing felon unless the suspect is presumed to be a grave threat to the general public if he escapes based on the crime he has committed.

Anyone reading the law on this as an absolute may be in for a surprise one day. The law does not give one free license to kill indiscriminately purely by their unlawful presence. Read the law any way you like and spin it any way you like, the courts still have power to charge you when there are extenuating circumstances. The jails are full of people who read the law as meaning one thing and found out that they were wrong.

Laws are not absolutes, no matter what you or an atty think. Attys interpret the law, they do not hold the power of judgment of others actions, and can not guarantee you anything in these types of situations. Err on the side of caution when dealing with taking another human beings life. It's not as pretty or as righteous as some of you indignantly express here based on your presumption of the laws guaranteeing you a free ride to kill another human being.

Those who would just blast the heater at the perp immediately as they think the law grants them that absolute right--------ever shot anyone? Ever taken another human beings life?

Brownie
 

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The Florida "Castle Doctrine" law basically does three things:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

Under number two of the three things the castle doctrine lawfully "allows"-------------------

See that meeting force with force criteria?
See that reasonably believes criteria?

What this is saying is that you don't have to retreat, and that you may meet force with force [ including deadly force ] if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.

Reasonably believe you are in danger of death or great bodily harm, not just blast em because they are unlawfully present.

I don't know how much clearer this can be--------you don't have a license to kill someone indiscriminately who unlawfully enters your home by their presence alone.

It clearly establishes criteria for the use of deadly force within the castle doctrine, as I suspected and posted earlier. Clearly, it does not allow that

"In Florida, someone who has broken into your home can be shot for any reason, or no reason at all" as J T believes.

Brownie
 

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F.S. 776.013 only refers to "meeting force with force" when not in your home.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
Believe it or don't...
 

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I had an interesting exchange on another gun-related forum about this very topic...here's what somebody posted and my response to it:

Intruders turn out to be friends?? Good God, man. If anyone comes into my house that I am not expecting, they go down. End of story. No hesitation.
I had a situation that occurred at my residence a few days ago that could have had disasterous consequences had either of my two adult, armed children employed that sort of 'tactical' mindset.

Unbeknownst to us, our next door neighbor's 60-ish sister was staying at his house recovering from brain surgery. She walked outside and, not being familiar with the area and our houses being similar in appearance, became disoriented and walked right through the front door of my house. When my son confronted her, she insisted that she lived there and what was he doing in her home?

Long story short, police arrived and sorted everything out...no harm, no foul. But I guess my kids don't get to be internet tough guys because they didn't plug this 'intruder' full of holes with "no hesitation".


Just a personal example of when not to shoot an intruder.
 
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