Florida Concealed Carry banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·

· Registered
Joined
·
994 Posts
Politely, any thing is possible, by the way, handgun calibers are by enlarge significantly ineffective versus rifle rounds. Even a 22 caliber rifle is better than a 22 pistol. Sounds like they'd have been better off shooting the BG with shotguns. I guarantee center mass hit with a slug or buck shot he ain't going anywhere.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
58,549 Posts
Never been impressed with tap ammo marketing or believed it was a viable round for self defense.

The 40S+W ammo they used was heavier than I'd use in that caliber believing the medium weight bullets will perform better in the streets for 40S+W. That none of the bullets penetrated more than 1" is interesting in this case.

As penetration of at least 12" is presently deemed necessary for reliable stops in any ammo by the bureau, it was ineffective to say the least. Now, I'd like to know why none of the pistol bullets penetrated more than 1". Did it have something to do with the down jacket he was wearing clogging the bullet making it act like ball? That seems at odds with the customary thinking that a HP that plugs with clothing and thus acting like ball will penetrate deeper and not expand.

Seems it takes a lot of 223 to reliably stop the BG's in a lot of cases. 308 wouldn't likely suffer the same fate IMO. Another case of not enough juice for the BG's to stop drop and roll, sorta speak :rolf

Battle rifles shooting 30 caliber bullets are proven far superior for battle than varmit cartridges on bipedal BG's and one of the reasons I don't shoot varmit cartridges at all and shoot 30 caliber every week out to 500 yds iron sighted :D

Brownie
 

· Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The slides said all but one of the .40's expanded properly, but I'm curious about the lack of penetration as well.

For distance shooting, I'm a huge fan of the .308 myself. For 0-300 yds, a 5.56 is plenty in most cases.... just not this one. Then again, a .40 is plenty in most cases too.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
58,549 Posts
I had a Gold Dot 380 expand to almost flat at 6 feet when fired into a plastic license plate holder after passing through a license plate last year. It didn't hit the bumper and fell to the ground.

I stopped carrying the 380 Gold Dot then and there and went with Buffalo Bores 100 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

Brownie
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,138 Posts
The 40S+W ammo they used was heavier than I'd use in that caliber believing the medium weight bullets will perform better in the streets for 40S+W. That none of the bullets penetrated more than 1" is interesting in this case.

Brownie
So what would you recommend for .40 S&W?

Can specify weight or velocity or brand?

Thanks.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,138 Posts
I reread the report and was appalled that 107 rounds of .40/223 were fired by the two officers and the bad guy was only hit 17 times.

That is only a 15.8% hit ratio. I realize that there is a lot of chaos going that is a terrible hit ratio.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
58,549 Posts
165-grain Ranger T's are preferred, but the Rem. Golden Sabre's in that same weight are quite impressive as well.

I think the 165 grain 40S+W bullets generating 1140-1150 fps are the best performers in that caliber.

Brownie
 

· Registered
Joined
·
58,549 Posts
I reread the report and was appalled that 107 rounds of .40/223 were fired by the two officers and the bad guy was only hit 17 times.

That is only a 15.8% hit ratio. I realize that there is a lot of chaos going that is a terrible hit ratio.
It's just under the national average for LE in the last several decades.

Brownie
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,138 Posts
165-grain Ranger T's are preferred, but the Rem. Golden Sabre's in that same weight are quite impressive as well.

I think the 165 grain 40S+W bullets generating 1140-1150 fps are the best performers in that caliber.

Brownie
Thanks Brownie. I'll take that reccomendation when I buy my next SD rounds.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,589 Posts
Never been impressed with tap ammo marketing or believed it was a viable round for self defense.

The 40S+W ammo they used was heavier than I'd use in that caliber believing the medium weight bullets will perform better in the streets for 40S+W. That none of the bullets penetrated more than 1" is interesting in this case.

As penetration of at least 12" is presently deemed necessary for reliable stops in any ammo by the bureau, it was ineffective to say the least. Now, I'd like to know why none of the pistol bullets penetrated more than 1". Did it have something to do with the down jacket he was wearing clogging the bullet making it act like ball? That seems at odds with the customary thinking that a HP that plugs with clothing and thus acting like ball will penetrate deeper and not expand.

Seems it takes a lot of 223 to reliably stop the BG's in a lot of cases. 308 wouldn't likely suffer the same fate IMO. Another case of not enough juice for the BG's to stop drop and roll, sorta speak :rolf

Battle rifles shooting 30 caliber bullets are proven far superior for battle than varmit cartridges on bipedal BG's and one of the reasons I don't shoot varmit cartridges at all and shoot 30 caliber every week out to 500 yds iron sighted :D

Brownie
Dammit man, why do you always have be hatin' on .223? I'm fairly certain it has resulted in a casualty or two over the years. :rolleyes: :D

And there isn't hardly a spot in this whole damn state where you can shoot for 500 yards! :aarg
 

· Banned
Joined
·
11,156 Posts
I seem to remember a police shooting involving a subject wearing a heavy down jacket in the 1980's; possibly in New England. The down acted as a very effective bullet resistant medium and most of the wounds were superficial. I am not able to find any corraboration in my records or on-line, so this may just be a dream. If I can find the info I'll post it.

I have to agree with Brownie concerning the .223/5.56mm round. It is an excellent wounder, not so good a killer on torso hits. It will kill you, but it often takes a little bit of time. It is much superior to almost any handgun round though.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
58,549 Posts
Dammit man, why do you always have be hatin' on .223? I'm fairly certain it has resulted in a casualty or two over the years. :rolleyes: :D

And there isn't hardly a spot in this whole damn state where you can shoot for 500 yards! :aarg
It is a combination of the weapons platform most commonly found with that round which got people killed in the late 60's unnecessarily which has brought a contempt for the round and that weapon it's used in.

Psst, use that Socom, it's one shot, one kill, a more reliable weapons platform and you don't usually have to go back for seconds :D

Here's something written that seems relevant on the subject. Written by an SBS operative after the Falklands invasion:

"We went by canoe, inflatable & helicopter etc, before the landings by Commandos & 'Paras' on the Falklands.
We went in on 'Fighting Patrols', with the specific task of killing.
The first time we took ARs.
The next time we swapped our ARs for FALs ( L1A1s.)
Next, we took as many GPMGs as we could. - Those without a GPMG, took FALs. - When one goes out with the intention of killing, leave the 5.56 at home. An AR is great on exercise, because it is light, but when you get down to business, you want the biggest, most powerfull calibre you can carry."

It mirrors my experiences while serving as a U.S. Misguided Child [ USMC ] as well. Those whose business is killing don't choose the AR in 223 when they have a choice.

Brownie
 

· Registered
Joined
·
58,549 Posts
Here's another real world M14/M1a recanting with it solving the days problems when it's killing time:

December 03, 2008
Military.com|by Christian Lowe

It started out just like any other patrol in a war-ravaged Afghan province.

Hardened by months of combat, sneak attacks and roadside ambushes, the Marines were ready for a fight. Rolling through the hardscrabble village of Shewan in Afghanistan's Farah province on August 8, the leathernecks of the Twentynine Palms, Calif.-based 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment knew enemy eyes were upon them.

It was a village they'd had on their radar for months. Taliban insurgents and their al Qaeda helpers were constantly harassing the Marines charged with holding back the anti-coalition flood in their 37,000 square mile operational area -- and insurgents were using Shewan as an occasional base for attacks.

They knew the rows of mud compounds held bad guys. But on the tail end of the 10-mile patrol, they never could have expected the hornets nest they were destined to stir up.

"I was prepared for contact but I wasn't expecting any," a Marine unit leader told Military.com. "It turned out later that there was a big meeting of enemy leaders in the town that we had interrupted, and we inadvertently trapped them inside of their compound."

It all started with a rocket propelled grenade shot at around 1:00 pm, and it ended nearly eight hours later with more than 50 enemy killed and only one injured Marine. For months, 2/7 had absorbed ambush after ambush from their hit-and-run opponents, suffering one of the highest casualty rates of any Marine unit deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The unit would be a symbol of the festering conflict in Afghanistan, where few NATO allies are willing to pitch in when the fight turns nasty and the full-force of American might is distracted by the high-profile conflict in Iraq.

But on August 8, in what would be known as "the battle of Shewan," it was payback time.

In an exclusive email exchange with Military.com, the platoon commander who led the Marines on that ill-fated patrol described the pitched battle in vivid detail. His Marines preferred that their story be recounted anonymously, so Marine officials declined several requests to name the specific platoon and company involved in the hours-long battle.

What the story shows is a typically aggressive response to an enemy that for once decided to emerge from the shadows. And it also serves as an illuminating look at how, no matter the adversity and casualty count, U.S. forces continue to fight with the will and determination to win, no matter the odds.

"We didn't win the fight because of our superior firepower. We were severely outnumbered, and outgunned," the platoon commander told Military.com. "From that first counter ambush assault we gained the momentum and maintained it until the enemy finally fled from the battlefield eight hours later."

Ambush Unleashed

Less than two hours into the patrol one of the Marine Humvees took fire from an enemy RPG team about 150 yards away. The grenade sailed harmlessly by, but the platoon sergeant swung his rifle, fired and killed the shooter while another Marine dropped a second man, the platoon commander said. The unit continued to receive sporadic small arms fire for the next hour, but pressed on with their patrol.

Then all hell broke loose.

About 10 insurgents ambushed the Marines' vehicles from an irrigation ditch and more fired on the patrol from a nearby trench line. Though a group of Marines tried to push through the enemy position, they were rebuffed by heavy fire and another Humvee was rocked by a volley of RPG rounds.

As the Humvee burned with its vehicle commander still inside, the Marines pounded the insurgent positions with M249 fire while AK bullets ricocheted off their vehicles. The platoon commander rushed to the downed vehicle to pull the stricken Marine to safety.

"All of a sudden we took an intense amount of machine gun fire from the tree line and at this point numerous machine guns opened up on my vehicle and the dismounted crew trapped in the kill zone," the platoon commander wrote. "This began 20 minutes of intense fighting as the platoon battled to recover the Marines from the kill zone."

All this was too much for one of the platoon's designated marksmen, who crawled to the top of a berm -- exposing himself to enemy fire -- and began to plink off the insurgent gunners firing at the burning Humvee.

"The enemy fired over 40 RPGs from the tree line but were unable to effectively engage the Marines trapped in the kill zone because of the high amount of accurate fire being directed at them," the platoon commander said. "The enemy was reinforcing the tree line and replacing fighters as quickly as we were killing them."

So the designated marksman kept his cool and continued to fire.

"The designated marksman merely adjusted [his sights] and sighted in on targets as they revealed their positions by engaging him," the platoon commander added. "He rapidly acquired and prosecuted these targets again and again, firing his rifle with exceptional accuracy ... until all of the Marines were recovered from the kill zone."

In all, the designated marksmen fired 20 shots, racking up 20 dead fighters.

Finally the Marines were able to roll in an MRAP vehicle to recover the wounded Marines, and the platoon pulled back out of the enemy's range to "redistribute ammunition and [come] up with a quick game plan," the platoon commander said.

Went back for more

The fighters never expected the Marines to return and were surprised to see leathernecks swarming through their trenches and targeting two strongholds with close air support.

"We took another 60 or so RPGs, some rockets and mortars ... but as we attempted to assault we started taking more fire from another compound," the platoon commander wrote. "The enemy had established a defense with mutually supporting positions."

Unable to continue the assault because of the intensity of fire, and with enemy trucks pulling into the compounds and disgorging insurgent fighters, two Marines crawled through a hail of machine gun fire to get more precise coordinates for an aerial bombing run. From only 75 meters away -- well within "danger close" restrictions -- the two Marines called in air strikes until the enemy eventually withdrew from the area.

In all, what started as an ambush by 30 insurgent fighters swelled to a full-fledged assault by an estimated 250 enemy militants. The 30 or so Marines of 2/7's platoon killed more than 50 insurgents in the eight-hour battle, the Corps says.

"It turned out later that there was a big meeting of enemy leaders in the town that we had interrupted and we inadvertently trapped them inside of their compound," the platoon commander wrote. "They must have thought that if they ambushed us we would cut and run. This was not the case."
---------------------------------------------------------------------

More than 50 killled in 8 hours and 20 of those were the M14 designated marksman who saved the day when the Marines with AR's could not get things under control quickly to affect the rescue of vehicle commander.

20 shots, 20 kills with the M14. Ya, that's what I'm talking about :drinks

Brownie
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,589 Posts
It is a combination of the weapons platform most commonly found with that round which got people killed in the late 60's unnecessarily which has brought a contempt for the round and that weapon it's used in.
While your disdain for the .223 may have some merit, I believe that your prejudice against the AR platform is outdated. The current crop of ARs is a far cry from the 60s-era M16. You of all people should know that the combination of factors that resulted in those deaths (wrong propellant, non chrome-lined bores, poor training, etc.) have long since been corrected.

And in case you didn't know, they make ARs in your beloved .308 now too. ;)

Psst, use that Socom, it's one shot, one kill, a more reliable weapons platform and you don't usually have to go back for seconds :D
Hey, that baby is expensive to feed full time. :D
 

· Registered
Joined
·
58,549 Posts
The AR 308 platform is a viable weapons platform.

I can't believe I just wrote that, but hey it is 30cal right .:doh

The newer gas blocked AR's are probably the only system I'd still feel comfortable with, but then there's that pesky little round to still contend with. :D

You folks in Fla need some open space to be able to shoot long range once in awhile. I don't know if I could live in Fla without something to whack at 500 yds or more. :drinks

Brownie
 

· Banned
Joined
·
11,156 Posts
While your disdain for the .223 may have some merit, I believe that your prejudice against the AR platform is outdated. The current crop of ARs is a far cry from the 60s-era M16. You of all people should know that the combination of factors that resulted in those deaths (wrong propellant, non chrome-lined bores, poor training, etc.) have long since been corrected.

And in case you didn't know, they make ARs in your beloved .308 now too. ;)



Hey, that baby is expensive to feed full time. :D
I know that I shouldn't get involved in this. But WTH. IMHO, the 223/5.56mm is very good as what it was designed to be, a short to medium range varmint round. But, people are simply too large an animal for it to be truly effective. Hollow point and soft point ammunition make it more effective, but the basic problem lies in the caliber. It is simply too small to be very effective. In combat, the light round lacks the range of a true battle rifle.

Let me move on to the AR-15/M16 platform. As it stands today, the AR is quite reliable and quite accurate. Of course, it took firearms manufacturers and the military nearly 50 years to get it to this point and there are still reliability issues that are constantly being addressed, particularly in the M4 variant. But, it is not a bad short range assault weapon.

There are better designs out there, including the AR-16/18 family of firearms that were available at the time the AR-15 was adopted. In 1960, the Air Force was looking for a weapon to replace the M1s, M14s and M1 carbines that their security police were carrying. They wanted something light and easy to shoot, like the M1 carbine, that would be capable of full automatic fire. The AF brass liked the futuristic look of the AR-10/15 and, not being dedicated ground combat troops, they liked the lighter recoil and the more controllable auto fire. The main function of the USAF security police was base defense, after all. So, they started procurement of the weapon. Along comes Robert McNamara [SecDef] and his "whiz kids". They had the bright idea that any new military hardware should have commonality among all of the services. It was decided that, to save on the expense of two separate small arms platforms and their attendant spare parts and ammo, all the services should be similarly equipped.
The two services that actually conducted combat ground operations, the US Army and the USMC, didn't want the AR-15. Simply because the caliber was untested, the range was half that of the current combat rifle, the M14, and these services had spent a significant amount of time and effort training their personnel to use controlled, aimed semi-automatic fire in combat. But, thanks to McNamara, they got saddled with the Black Gun Blaster in 1964. And they immediately had trouble with it.
First, the troops had to be retrained. Due to the fact that the bolt actually rides into the stock, upon firing, troops could no longer rest their weight on the stock when going prone or use the stock to butt stroke an enemy. If the buffer/receiver tube is bent, the weapon would not function. Then they began to have problems in the field with ammo expenditure. The troops found that they could use "spray and pray" full automatic fire and they were doing so. Ammo use skyrocketed. Next came the fail to function problems. Some of these were due to cartridge powder and these were addressed by changing the powder formula and lining the chamber with chrome. But, simple dirt fouling continued to be a problem [the weapon tolerances due to the direct gas impingement system used were simply too tight] and this was addressed by having the troops clean their weapons more often and on a regular basis. But, the problems continued. The weapon's range was adequate for a 300m killzone around a firebase or at heavy jungle and forest ranges, but in open territory it was sadly lacking in effective range. And, the round was not a good man stopper. It was found that multiple rounds were usually needed to neutralize the threat from an enemy soldier.
The USA and the USMC were not happy, but there was nothing they could do about it. Politics got in the way. As this weapons platform was in use in every service, it would not only have cost a fortune to replace it, but the political fall-out in the DOD and the Administration would have been totally unacceptable. So the US military was stuck with a weapon platform that only the USAF really wanted. They had to make it work. So a tremendous amount of money has been spent improving the M16, when they could have gotten a better weapons platform off the shelf at any time.

Now the popularity of the AR-15 family of rifles stems, largely, from the fact that it has been the main service weapon of the US military for 45 years. Most ex-servicemen, and women, are familiar with it. They usually feel comfortable with it. The weight is light, the recoil is light and it is handy. It is adequate for short range defense. And it is as iconic as the AK-47. It is not a bad weapon, there are simply better ones out there.

I apologize for the length of the post, but I am trying to avoid mowing the lawn.:(
 

· Registered
Joined
·
11,589 Posts
I know that I shouldn't get involved in this. But WTH.
That's the spirit. :drinks :D

It is not a bad weapon, there are simply better ones out there.
Agreed...but unfortunately, I can't find an FNC for less than a few mortgage payments. :doh

I apologize for the length of the post, but I am trying to avoid mowing the lawn.:(
Get out there, slacker. :laughing
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top