[twocan]

I am currently looking to purchase a second rifle for long range defense at sea. I travel quite a ways offshore and with the current Pirate situation, I am preparing a new self defense plan for the boat to keep the bad guys at bay.

I currently have a Savage Model 110 in .30-06 caliber and have found a Remington 700 ADL also in .30-06

Would I be better off getting a Remington 700 in .308 for this long range situation?

I have been told by some that the .308 is a better round for long distance, but I am confused why the .30-06 wouldn't be better.

Capt. Art

 

[T.S.]

I am currently looking to purchase a second rifle for long range defense at sea. I travel quite a ways offshore and with the current Pirate situation, I am preparing a new self defense plan for the boat to keep the bad guys at bay.

Capt. Art

In my humble opinion, if I were looking for a rifle for long range defense at sea, I would not want a bolt action rifle.

Bolters are good for hunting game, but if your adversary is "two-legged" and may have some "buddies" with him, I would want a semi-auto.

With that being said, if you are considering between a 30-06 or a .308, I would select the Springfield M1A in .308.

This is the civilian model of the M-14, it is semi-auto, and it can engage targets out to 300, 400, or 500 yards with a good scope on it.

Also, being a semi-auto, it is a good battle rifle at close range as well, if you need to gain "fire superiority" if they do get on deck.

Good luck to you sir. :thumsup

 

[twocan]

Thanks. Sgt.

I am thinking that if necessary, a few holes in the hull or one in an outboard engine should dissuade the hostile boat.

That's why I was thinking of .30-06

 

[brownie]

looking to purchase a second rifle for long range defense at sea.

The underlined bolded requirement dictates a semi auto battle rifle IMO. The M1a would be perfect in the role of boat security as TampaSsgt suggests. I've got one dedicated to the long range counter sniper role with two options.

1. Set up with ARMS mounts [ #18 receiver and #19 scope mating mount ] for use during the day. My daytime scope is a range finder unit graduated to 800 yds.

2. #20 mating mount with an ANPVS4 U.S. military 2nd gen night vision unit for use in the dark. The ANPVS4 is 4x and can see and hit a person out to 300 yds. and vehicles out to 500+ yrds quite easily.

Both mating mounts can be taken off to use the iron sights and can be realistically used out to 250-300 yds on a rolling ship/boat in the anti-personnel role if necessary. Whats nice about the ARMS mounts is the repeatability of zero if the scopes are removed when replaced on the rifle without having to re-set the scopes.

For accuracy, the 308 Nato surplus ammo is quite capable of delivering 1.5 minute of angle in these rifles if the shooter is up to it. I train people on this platform out to 400 yds with iron sights regularly within a few hours demonstrating the rifle is intuitive and accurate with very little training when shown properly how to make use of the rear sight "come ups".

I used one similarly set up for yacht security back in the mid 80's on a few occasions off the Fla coast some 20 miles off shore while anchored. It deterred one scarab closing fast and ignoring the radio messages to not approach at about 350 yrds out around 3am one morning with the ANPVS4 atop when it put a few 762x51 rounds into the bow.

I'd not consider another semi auto in that role. It's known for it's accuracy and reliability though one does need to learn how to maintain the rifle correctly.

Brownie

 

[Mac45]

Either caliber will work for you. But, I would second Sarge's suggestion of going with a semi-auto. Depending upon the sea-state, it can be very, very difficult to hit a target from a moving boat. The M1A, the Cetme or H&K91, Armalite's AR-10, or even the Saiga 308 would all work well as a high powered defense weapon. Even sporting rifles, such as the BAR and the Remington 74/740/7400 series will suffice. The Remington will also accept ten round after-market magazines as well. It might be a good idea to stow a 12 ga shotgun on board. They are also excellent for repelling boarders.

 

[brownie]

Mac45,

Agreed on the shottie use if about to be boarded. We kept a few of them stowed on board during the day and brought them out at night and felt pretty good with them close by.

The HK91 would be another good choice with the claw mount and scoped, but it's accuracy isn't that of the M1a, bit plenty doable and probably easier to learn to maintain than the M1a. I'd still prefer the M1a for it's superior accuracy at longer ranges myself.

Brownie

 

[T.S.]

It might be a good idea to stow a 12 ga shotgun on board. They are also excellent for repelling boarders.

+1 on the 12 guage.

If the 'bad guys' do get close enough to be a boarding threat, a 12 guage with some type of "0" buckshot would be ideal.

 

[twocan]

Incendiary rounds

Thanks for your great advice.

I just located some incendiary rounds for 30-06 and 308 that burn on impact at 3000 degrees and a 12 gauge fireball round that puts out a momentary wall of fire also at 3000 degrees. It is used for setting backfires by firemen.

I did run across a drug boat three years ago in the Florida Straights; no navigation lights and no radio response - just morse code via flashing light.

I guess he thought I was coming out to meet him until I did not respond to his light signals.

Can't be to careful out there.

 

[Mac45]

A boat with no lights in the Straits at night is definitely something to steer well clear of. You never know who, or what, is aboard. But whatever it is, it may make sinking you worthwhile. Time to throttle up and go elsewhere, in a hurry.

 

[twocan]

With a top speed of 10 knots, I will probably not be able to outrun any of them.


By the way, my intentions are always to avoid a conflict. The first part of the plan is to avoid the conflict altogether by changing course. Since the top speed of our vessel is 10 knots, I expect the hostile vessel will be faster. If he starts to follow me through several course changes and fails to acknowledge radio calls, I will be fairly certain of bad intentions.

Calling the Coast Guard to report pursuit is next, soon to be followed by shots from our stern to discourage the hostile vessel.

If we are being overtaken, I will turn our 200 ton steel vessel 180 degrees and ram the hostile. By that time, the shotguns will be out and ready.

 

[brownie]

With a top speed of 10 knots, I will probably not be able to outrun any of them.


By the way, my intentions are always to avoid a conflict. The first part of the plan is to avoid the conflict altogether by changing course. Since the top speed of our vessel is 10 knots, I expect the hostile vessel will be faster. If he starts to follow me through several course changes and fails to acknowledge radio calls, I will be fairly certain of bad intentions.

Calling the Coast Guard to report pursuit is next, soon to be followed by shots from our stern to discourage the hostile vessel.

If we are being overtaken, I will turn our 200 ton steel vessel 180 degrees and ram the hostile. By that time, the shotguns will be out and ready.

You might want to consider the idea of having something that will prevent them from getting close enough for you to potentially start taking accurate small arms fire from AK's etc.

One of the reasons the speed boat was not allowed to get closer than 300 yrds before taking incoming themselves. If I were worried about being shadowed, chased, or boarded I'd prefer to have a "reach out and touch someone" rifle with some punch handy.

Just something to think about.

Brownie

 

[deadeyedick]

Captain Stubing (shown here in the un-aired Love Boat episode "Yangtze Panky") highly recommends the Lewis Gun for dealing with threats at sea.

Seriously though, an M1 Garand would also be suitable for shipboard defense, IMO...and it's chambered in .30-06.

 

[Devilfrog]

+1 for the M1 Garand, its not going to cost an arm and leg (like an M1A) and it is also a proven battle rifle.
+1 for the 12 Gauge for close encounters.

If you have the money and such do what the Navy does, mount an M2 .50 cal, it'll handle just about anything you'll run into in the Gulf! :ak

 

[brownie]

The M1 Garand will be harder to support with parts availability should it need something as they have not been made for over 50 years.

Parts for the M1a/m14 are still being made by companies like LRB out of Long Island, NY and Springfield Armory "SA" [ and a few more ].

30-06 surplus ammo has become almost non existent most of the time meaning you'd have to use commercial ammo [ rather expensive comparatively speaking ] and will likely run into head space problems as the Garands were head spaced for military ammo and not intended for commercial ammo to be used.

SA tried to resurrect the M1 commercially and it was a dismal failure right from the start. Consequently, they dropped the rifle from the lineup PDQ.

Brownie

 

[deadeyedick]

an M1 Garand would also be suitable for shipboard defense, IMO

Hmmm...looks like MO ain't worth JS. :doh

 

[brownie]

I think your suggestion was an excellent choice Deadeye. I'd just be worried about being able to service and readily get parts for it in the future.

The Garand's took Camp Perry 1000 matches for many years and are obviously capable rifles. I've not bought one in all these years due to parts availability and now with the ammo shortages from CMP in surplus 30-06, I'm even more hesitant to want one other than for nostalgic reasons.

The 30-06 and 7.62x51 are basically sister cartridges and you can find Tanker Garands that have been converted to 7.622x51 which would be another option as the conversions are head spaced for Nato surplus ammo as well.

Brownie

 

[Devilfrog]

There's still plenty of military surplus out there, the CMP still is the best source. Some ammo manufacturers are now making Garand specific .30-06 and there is always reloading.
Spare parts are available out there as well, Sportsmans Guide even sells operating rods, barrels, etc.
For half the price of an M1A you can have your rifle, ammo & spare parts.
The Garand is kind of like the B52 bomber, yeah its old, but still does the job and will scare the hell out of anyone its targeting!

(I have nothing against the M1A, in fact I'd love to have one :thumsup, its just not in budget right now.)

 

[brownie]

Greek .30-06 ammunition seems to be back on tap at the CMP presently as devilfrog mentioned. They've been back ordered for quite some time in any 30-06 and it's getting harder to find on a regular basis.

There's still plenty of military surplus out there

Not sure what you consider "plenty" but I can't buy 10K of it in one lot anywhere [ not the milspec anyway which is the easiest route on the wallet ] like I can the 7.62x51. I noticed CMP is limiting 10 cases a year for 1920 rounds total. The writing is on the wall with surplus 30-06 when the CMP starts restricting ammo sales.

Customers in the shop have had orders in for ammo from CMP for months with no stock in the recent past, and it's availability has been sporadic for a few years [ hit or miss when you want it ].

We've taken 4 M1's into the shop in the last month for lack of cheap milspec ammo availability. Nice rifles indeed, but they are getting long in the tooth and availability of parts is going to get harder to find and more expensive over the coming years.

USGI M14 parts have all but dried up as well in the last 5 years, but the M1a is still produced and there are many companies making cast parts for that platform resulting in it's being supported with parts for years to come.

Brownie

 

[brownie]

Found some m1 parts availability

http://www.m1garandrifle.com/Garandparts.htm

http://www.fulton-armory.com/MParts.htm

http://www.ammogarand.com/m1-garand-part.html

http://www.ammogarand.com/3006-m2-520rd-spam-can-twin-cities-503930062520503920.html for M2 1953/54 30-06 ammo, at $1.05 a round

http://www.sarcoinc.com/m1g.html#top

Just a few above that also carry many m14/m1a parts. Seems many parts are available as devilfrog had mentioned.

Brownie

 

[knite7]

Cruised 3 yrs with family and carried ...

I Cruised 3 yrs with my wife and daughters on a 50 ft cutter rigged ketch back in the early 80's. We spent a lot of time in the Caribbean. While most boats carried Mini 14's, I chose a Remington 742* semi auto in 30-06 and a Mossberg 12 ga. My rationale for the 30-06 was two fold.
First, 30-06 ammo was readily available anywhere in the world and came in all varieties. I carried armor piercing and incendiary rounds along with 160 grain match grade.
Secondly, I had qualified Expert with the M14 at Parris Island and was a firm advocate of the ability to reach out and start touching someone at 700 or 800 yards.
Even today, I still think that the 30-06 has better ammo type and availability than the 308.
Knite7

* What I really, really wanted was a BAR, but....