Ok before you all laugh at me I know it's Hollywood. Anyway this short clip is a scene from the movie Collateral which shows Tom Cruise addressing two BG at close quarters. My question is, a) are his moves realistic and if not what would you do differently in this same scenario.
2 against 1 Defensive Scenario
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I love that scene!
Technically, nothing wrong with how he solved the problem.
Mick Gould, a former SAS guy did all the firearms training for that movie. He definitely knows what he's doing.
When facing multiple threats, the 'classic' school of thought is one round for each, repeat as necessary.
Technically, nothing wrong with how he solved the problem.
Mick Gould, a former SAS guy did all the firearms training for that movie. He definitely knows what he's doing.
When facing multiple threats, the 'classic' school of thought is one round for each, repeat as necessary.
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Cruise takes out the first guy correctly, moving the gun off his center line then firing from the hip as the gun clears the holster [ the fastest shots on threat at that distance and something I'm training members here to do in March ].
Cruise then goes two handed to near line of sight at the same distance which is unnecessarily slower. My own forum has discussed this with some real world people who also agree that from that distance he should have just turreted to the second guy and stayed at the hip position as it would have been much faster to do so.
Some suggested it was more artistic license for the movie as it looked cooler to go to a classic stance and line of sight shots. That may be true, we can't know why it was played that way for sure.
One of the skills I train others in and members will be getting in the March class is called Quick Kill hip [ QK hip ]. Two guys taken out at that distance in the time it would take most to take out just one. It's a variation on the Fairbairn/Sykes half hip skill that was taught to me by Bobby Lamar "Lucky" McDaniel back in 81.
Members in the March class will understand the speed difference in staying at the hip vs the movie move Cruise makes. When faced with two or more threats from that distance, retention shooting up close, and the skill I'll be giving others [ QK hip ] for that scenario will become very apparent as to just how easy it is to get fast hits on multiples.
Other than the above, there is at least one other way to solve that problem but we'll leave that for another day and just address the gun solutiion only here.
Brownie
Cruise then goes two handed to near line of sight at the same distance which is unnecessarily slower. My own forum has discussed this with some real world people who also agree that from that distance he should have just turreted to the second guy and stayed at the hip position as it would have been much faster to do so.
Some suggested it was more artistic license for the movie as it looked cooler to go to a classic stance and line of sight shots. That may be true, we can't know why it was played that way for sure.
One of the skills I train others in and members will be getting in the March class is called Quick Kill hip [ QK hip ]. Two guys taken out at that distance in the time it would take most to take out just one. It's a variation on the Fairbairn/Sykes half hip skill that was taught to me by Bobby Lamar "Lucky" McDaniel back in 81.
Members in the March class will understand the speed difference in staying at the hip vs the movie move Cruise makes. When faced with two or more threats from that distance, retention shooting up close, and the skill I'll be giving others [ QK hip ] for that scenario will become very apparent as to just how easy it is to get fast hits on multiples.
Other than the above, there is at least one other way to solve that problem but we'll leave that for another day and just address the gun solutiion only here.
Brownie
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flccnp,
Most people will not have adequate, reliable gun grabbing/disarming skills to pull that off. Most will not have the draw speed to pull what Cruise did in the clip either.
If you know you have the draw speed, pushing the gun off line, blading to the BG at the same time is a viable option. With two BG's to deal with, a gun disarm or attempting to control the BG's weapon will slow your reaction to the second BG's draw and is dicey at best. Cruise could have bladed while pushing the weapon off line and moved in and to the BG1's right, thereby stacking both of them while shooting BG1 as he went by and keeping BG2 from firing if he had been able to draw the gun fast enough for fear of hitting his partner. There are a few ways to pull that scenario off successfully.
Just an observation based on two variables that most people who carry a gun won't have the skills to use.
Brownie
Most people will not have adequate, reliable gun grabbing/disarming skills to pull that off. Most will not have the draw speed to pull what Cruise did in the clip either.
If you know you have the draw speed, pushing the gun off line, blading to the BG at the same time is a viable option. With two BG's to deal with, a gun disarm or attempting to control the BG's weapon will slow your reaction to the second BG's draw and is dicey at best. Cruise could have bladed while pushing the weapon off line and moved in and to the BG1's right, thereby stacking both of them while shooting BG1 as he went by and keeping BG2 from firing if he had been able to draw the gun fast enough for fear of hitting his partner. There are a few ways to pull that scenario off successfully.
Just an observation based on two variables that most people who carry a gun won't have the skills to use.
Brownie
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Can't say much about how Cruise took care of the bad guys, but I can say (yes it is a movie), bad guy #2 could have shot Cruise 5x before he got it, bad guy #2 looked as if he was saying "come on Tom, I can't fumble around for my gun much longer". Point, #2 would/should have taken Cruise, Cruise would have been dead in that confrontation (it goes without say I also would have lost 
) .
) .
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#2 looked as if he was saying "come on Tom, I can't fumble around for my gun much longer"
He certainly did, an astute observation MrSteve. Keep in mind, many ccw carriers [ and certainly BG's ] don't practice for a rapid smooth draw stroke, and if you count the time it takes BG2 to get the gun out, it's not much slower than most ccw carriers would be able to get up and running.
It's also another reason for Cruise to have stayed at the hip and just turreted to the second BG as I mentioned. When time is of the essence, you don't use something that's slower when other skills/tactics are available to you.
Brownie
He certainly did, an astute observation MrSteve. Keep in mind, many ccw carriers [ and certainly BG's ] don't practice for a rapid smooth draw stroke, and if you count the time it takes BG2 to get the gun out, it's not much slower than most ccw carriers would be able to get up and running.
It's also another reason for Cruise to have stayed at the hip and just turreted to the second BG as I mentioned. When time is of the essence, you don't use something that's slower when other skills/tactics are available to you.
Brownie
To me, I think one of the key things is that Cruise's character attempts to take care of the immediate problem (bad guy's gun in his face) as/before he goes for his own weapon, rather than just trying to draw and fire without addressing the bad guy's gun.
-JT
-JT
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JT,
Also a good observation. One will be hard pressed to draw a firearm on a drawn gun and survive without first taking the weapon off their center line and preferably drawing at the same time.
Like chewing gun and walking at the same time, you should be capable of multi-tasking, in fact it is imperative to be able to multi-task, if one has any chance of surviving against two BG's that close and one who already has a gun drawn and in your face.
I know of two men who have done it in the real world and survived. One of them did it twice, and both men were witnessed by others who reported their feats.
One was Bill Jordan, the border agent who outdrew single BG's on two different ocassions working for the US Border Patrol, and the other being Jelly Bryce, a federal law dog who drew and fired on a man who had the gun up and was in the process of pointing it at him inside a bedroom.
Both Jordan and Bryce had recorded times of .40 second draw strokes regularly.
Bryce took one quick half step to his right as he entered the bedroom while drawing his firearm from under a sports jacket holstered on his belt, and fired two shots into the BG on the bed before the BG could pull the trigger.
Jordan said he watched the BG blink, and took the opportunity to light him up with his K frame 357 Smith and Wesson from a snapped duty holster. Both men were known to practice their draw strokes for hours in the mirror regularly, and both got to live for their efforts and practice.
Brownie
Also a good observation. One will be hard pressed to draw a firearm on a drawn gun and survive without first taking the weapon off their center line and preferably drawing at the same time.
Like chewing gun and walking at the same time, you should be capable of multi-tasking, in fact it is imperative to be able to multi-task, if one has any chance of surviving against two BG's that close and one who already has a gun drawn and in your face.
I know of two men who have done it in the real world and survived. One of them did it twice, and both men were witnessed by others who reported their feats.
One was Bill Jordan, the border agent who outdrew single BG's on two different ocassions working for the US Border Patrol, and the other being Jelly Bryce, a federal law dog who drew and fired on a man who had the gun up and was in the process of pointing it at him inside a bedroom.
Both Jordan and Bryce had recorded times of .40 second draw strokes regularly.
Bryce took one quick half step to his right as he entered the bedroom while drawing his firearm from under a sports jacket holstered on his belt, and fired two shots into the BG on the bed before the BG could pull the trigger.
Jordan said he watched the BG blink, and took the opportunity to light him up with his K frame 357 Smith and Wesson from a snapped duty holster. Both men were known to practice their draw strokes for hours in the mirror regularly, and both got to live for their efforts and practice.
Brownie
Something else that was vital in that scenario, which brownie mentioned, was Cruise's character moving off line.
One of the key things in the Filipino martial arts as we teach them is removing the target via some type of body motion, whether it's footwork or a seemingly simple shifting of the body. This brings redundancy to your defensive motion.
I see so many "blocks" and "parries" taught that don't utilize this concept, so if the attacker is faster or significantly stronger than the defender, the block fails because the target is still in line. As counter-intuitive as it may seem to the uninitiated, this is vitally important with melee weapon work, including close quarters blade work.
This concept can apply to defensive shooting, at ranges greater than what was shown in the movie clip, in that when you have to draw your weapon, you don't just stand there as an immobile target as you acquire your weapon and present it. If at all possible, move to cover as you draw, but even if cover isn't readily available, move.
This is true if you have to clear a malfunction. Practicing "tap-rack-bang" (or whatever term you use) is well and good, but performing those motions while you just stand there is a front row ticket to a Bad Day.
Hurm. May have went off on a tangent there for a bit.
-JT
One of the key things in the Filipino martial arts as we teach them is removing the target via some type of body motion, whether it's footwork or a seemingly simple shifting of the body. This brings redundancy to your defensive motion.
I see so many "blocks" and "parries" taught that don't utilize this concept, so if the attacker is faster or significantly stronger than the defender, the block fails because the target is still in line. As counter-intuitive as it may seem to the uninitiated, this is vitally important with melee weapon work, including close quarters blade work.
This concept can apply to defensive shooting, at ranges greater than what was shown in the movie clip, in that when you have to draw your weapon, you don't just stand there as an immobile target as you acquire your weapon and present it. If at all possible, move to cover as you draw, but even if cover isn't readily available, move.
This is true if you have to clear a malfunction. Practicing "tap-rack-bang" (or whatever term you use) is well and good, but performing those motions while you just stand there is a front row ticket to a Bad Day.
Hurm. May have went off on a tangent there for a bit.
-JT
What I take away from this video is that for CWL holders I think it is imperative that we be able to sweep away or lift cover garment and draw with one hand very smooth and fast. I practice this with a t-shirt without any problems but I had difficulty doing it with a heavy jacket. My draw was a lot slower. My advise would be to practice with one hand and with different cover garment types. It does take a lot of practice to do it smooth and fast.
I ran into a trigger problem with my Glock where I was drawing and firing from the hip. I somehow managed to not fully cover the trigger with my index finger and so the trigger could not be pulled because the trigger safety was not activated. If I had not practiced this before hand I could see myself making this same mistake under stress.
I ran into a trigger problem with my Glock where I was drawing and firing from the hip. I somehow managed to not fully cover the trigger with my index finger and so the trigger could not be pulled because the trigger safety was not activated. If I had not practiced this before hand I could see myself making this same mistake under stress.
Another good point, NkmG19. That's one of the many reasons why I participate in IDPA. Unlike a LOT of the other shooters, I don't use an OWB holster that will give me a competitive edge on my draw. I use the holster I carry everyday, my Crossbreed Supertuck.
Would I shave off a second or two on my draw with some cheap kydex quasi-competition holster? Yes. Would I get the live-fire practice of drawing from concealment in my regular carry rig? Heck no.
Unfortunately, it seems so few ranges allow shooters to draw and shoot. Luckily, not only do I have IDPA for practice, but I can also use the action range at my gun club for the same.
-JT
Would I shave off a second or two on my draw with some cheap kydex quasi-competition holster? Yes. Would I get the live-fire practice of drawing from concealment in my regular carry rig? Heck no.
Unfortunately, it seems so few ranges allow shooters to draw and shoot. Luckily, not only do I have IDPA for practice, but I can also use the action range at my gun club for the same.
-JT
Oh, heck, I know I couldn't do it. That is why it was theory.
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Very true, JT. When I shoot IDPA, I wear/use what I carry everyday. I normally use Comp-Tac paddle holsters, but I've shot matches using my Alessi CQC/S as well. All covered with a simple button front shirt. No vests for me. The only difference between what I carry and IDPA is the addition of an extra spare mag. I normally only carry one.
If they let us shoot from the appendix position, I'd do that, too.
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I think they could just have my briefcase!
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That was my favorite shot in the scene actually.:thumsup
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That last shot was just insurance, the guy was still moving some, and he was not taking any chances as he was putting his back to him and walking away.
Poetic license for the movie, but as has been suggested, not many would have been so Blas'e about it in the real world out in the open like that.
Nice pick up on that last shot TampaSsgt:thumsup
Brownie
Poetic license for the movie, but as has been suggested, not many would have been so Blas'e about it in the real world out in the open like that.
Nice pick up on that last shot TampaSsgt:thumsup
Brownie
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