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Caliber/ballistic Science

29K views 31 replies 20 participants last post by  buckshotshorty 
#1 ·
Here is an excerpt of an article posted here at Concealed Carry Forum about ammunition choices for handguns.

This has to be the most heavily debated topic of any given gun related forum. Starting as "9mm vs. .45" during WW2, with many new caliber choices the caliber wars continue to rage. Some believe in big bullets...some believe in lighter, faster bullets with higher simple energy numbers...some believe in shot placement....all are equally mistaken. The potential effectiveness of any bullet in a defensive shooting is always an issue of probabilities that factor in caliber, weight, velocity, shot placement, (resulting in penetration and expansion), and even the physical condition (drugs, rage, size, etc.) of the threat you are attempting to neutralize. You will hear of threats dropping immediately from a .25 ACP and you will hear of threats that continued to fight despite a solid .44 Magnum hit but these are rare exceptions and should never be considered representative in any way of overall stopping power potential. They are nothing beyond extremely rare incidents that have minimal impact on the overall averages used to calculate overall stopping power potential.

If you remove the human element (your ability to shoot, for example) and limit your comparison to bullet performance its hard to argue with "bigger is better". Despite lower simple energy numbers, bigger and particularly heavier bullets carry more stopping power potential and this is clearly substantiated in history.

Just as it had in the previous century, the .45 Long Colt proved itself by dropping the Moros Tribesmen most often with a single shot (yes, a single torso hit from the .45 Long Colt proved superior to 5 and 6 shots from the .38 Long Colt!). This is documented US history and there is no disputing it. The .45 Long Colt played a crucial role in winning the war, and this directly lead to the development of the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (.45 ACP) which served our troops equally well through two world and many smaller wars.

In and of itself with all else being equal (shot placement, etc.) hitting a threat with a 230 grain .45 caliber slug is not the same thing as hitting that same threat in the same place with a 115 grain .355" slug despite its considerably higher velocity. With typical handgun velocities at typical defensive handgun ranges bigger simply is better....but how much better is the question, and at what cost? 20 years ago there was significant difference in ballistic performance of the 9mm compared to the .45, but modern ballistic science has brought the 9mm closer to the .45 than ever before. While I still believe bigger is better (you don't shoot elephants with small and fast bullets, you shoot elephants with big, heavy bullets), it's hard to argue with a 147 grain 9mm bullet that penetrates 14" and has been shown to expand to .72" (147 grain federal HST).


Although true and accurate, does the example of the Moros Tribesmen mean that everyone should carry the .45? Absolutely not. Although the .45 would serve anyone very well just as it has throughout history, this does not make it the superior choice for everyone. .45 caliber weapons are either relatively large or they have very limited capacity and this limiting factor rules out the .45 for many. To confuse the issue even more, although I firmly believe that all things equal bigger is better, all things are rarely equal when you factor in the human element. Although the 180 grain .40 offers slightly more stopping power potential than a 124 grain 9mm that does not necessarily make it a better choice for carry due to many reasons. If you find the .40 recoil uncomfortable you probably wont be able to hit with it with as much confidence as you would with the 9mm. Capacity is another issue, especially when you factor in cover fire. Is it better to have 8 rounds of .45 in your weapon or 16 rounds of 9mm? The answer to this question will be as unique as the individual in question. The following is a comparison of caliber with my assessment of each round:



.22 LR
Good:
Weapons are small.
Ammunition is cheap and plentiful.
Adequate as a backup weapon.

Bad:
Not adequate as a primary weapon.

Notes: - If you carry this caliber for a backup weapon, carry CCI Mini-Mags.



.25 ACP
Good:
Weapons are small.
Better than nothing.

Bad:
Not adequate as a primary weapon.
Not adequate as a backup weapon.
Ammunition is extremely expensive.

Notes: - Please don't carry this caliber. I have literally witnessed the .25 ACP knock over Coke bottles at 50' instead of breaking them.



.32 ACP
Good:
Weapons are small.
Better than nothing.
Adequate as a backup weapon with FMJ ammunition.

Bad:
Despite its relative popularity, the .32 ACP is not adequate as a primary weapon.
Ammunition is relatively expensive and choices can be limited.




.380 ACP
Good:
Weapons are small.
Adequate as backup weapon with FMJ ammunition.

Bad:
Despite its popularity the .380 ACP is not adquate as primary carry weapon with any ammunition.
Ammunition is relatively expensive.




.38 Special
Good:
Adequate as a primary carry weapon in 158 grain +P loads.
Adequate as a backup weapon at standard pressures.
Compact weapons.
Economical to shoot.
Very popular caliber with many great choices in weapons and ammunition.

Bad:
Limited capacity (revolver).
Marginal when loaded at standard pressures.




9mm Luger
Good:
Excellent as a primary weapon in 147 grain loads or 125 grain +P/+P+ loads.
Ammunition is cheap and plentiful!
Most popular handgun cartridge in the world offering a nearly unlimited selection of weapons.
High capacity even in compact designs.

Bad:
Marginal performance from light loads at standard pressure.

Notes: - The 9mm Luger has been around a little longer than the .45 ACP and has attained unmatched global acceptance. Most every modernized nation in the world today issues combat side arms chambered for the 9mm Luger. Because the 9mm is considerably smaller and lighter than the .45 the weapons chambered for it are able to carry more rounds, as are the soldiers who carry them. 147 grain loads make the 9mm a truly viable defensive caliber and this is the ammunition I recommend if your weapon will cycle it reliably. If choosing 115/124/125/127 grain loads, carry only +P.



357 Sig
Good:
Excellent as a primary weapon.
This round just sizzles - 125 grains @ 1450 fps!
Penetrates hard objects like no other handgun round.

Bad:
Ammunition cost literally twice as much as 9mm.
Ammunition selection is limited in most areas.
Generous recoil (relative).

Notes: - Were it not for cost, the 357 Sig would be the best recommendation I could make for carry. The US Secret Service chose this round to protect and defend the President of the United States.



.357 Magnum
Good:
Excellent as a primarly weapon.
Most versatile handgun round with huge ammunition selection.
Can practice with cheaper .38 Special ammunition.

Bad:
Limited capacity (revolver).
Generous recoil (relative).




.40 S&W
Good:
Excellent as a primary weapon.
Economical to shoot.
Large ammunition selection.

Bad:
Snappy recoil (relative).

Notes: - Offering the perfect compromise (without compromising performance) between the 9mm and the .45 ACP, it's quite hard to find fault with the .40 S&W. The .40 was born indirectly due to LE rejection of the 9mm after the famous FBI shoot-out in Miami in 1986. Offering more stopping power potential than the 9mm and more capacity than the .45, the .40 fills the gap between the two perfectly. You really don't give up much stopping power potential compared to the .45, and you aren't losing much capacity compared to the 9mm. The .40 is the ideal carry caliber.



.45 ACP
Good:
Ballistically superior as a primary weapon.
Big, heavy bullets.
Effective even in FMJ.
+P not required for superior performance.
Abundant ammunition selection.

Bad:
Weapons are either large or have limited capacity.



There are other calibers worth mentioning because they are viable defensive rounds, yet I don't typically recommend them for various reasons.

Super .38: While ballistically superior to 9mm, the choices in the Super .38 platform (both in weapons and ammunition) are few and far between. Dealers who do stock ammunition offer a very limited selection and what they do have is extremely expensive. The Super .38 is a handloader's caliber.

10mm: Ballistically the 10mm has stopping power potential matching (and in some loadings exceeding) the .45 ACP. Though the 10mm is thought by many to be the ultimate caliber, instead of expanding this platform the 10mm has been downloaded to the point that most 10mm loads available are only marginally better than .40 S&W while costing twice as much. There are a couple decent 10mm loads out there but they most always require placing an order and waiting. Like the Super .38, the 10mm is a handloader's caliber.

.41 Magnum: The .41 Magnum is a beautiful round with beautiful ballistics that never found the glory it deserves. Although it would serve anyone very well, industry support for this round is dying.

.44 Magnum: "The most powerful handgun in the world" generates some very impressive ballistics but I don't feel weapons chambered for .44 Magnum are (typically) practical for carry.

There is an almost infinite number of calibers not mentioned, but these are the only ones I would even consider for carry.
 
#3 ·
Even if you have the best ammo in the world, if you don't hit the target just right the ammo won't do you any good. When I go to the range now I mostly practice point and shoot instead of target shooting. There is a big difference between the two. Point and shoot requires you to acquire the target in a split second like in real life. With target shooting you can take all day to get a perfect hit but this is not good for self defense shootings.
 
#4 ·
When you point and shoot, are you drawing or just picking the pistol up and tapping off a round?
 
#6 ·
Most people in the know stress shot placement over the relatively small differences in velocity and penetration once you reach the 9mm plateau and above.

That said, here is a pretty good idea of the comparative wound channels of the various calibers useful for self defense. I believe the medium is ballistic gelatin, but I'm not 100% certain.

 
#10 ·
What is the source of that image? I carry a glock29 and have a glock20, I have a small group of friends that all shoot 10mm, one is about to receive a custom 1911 in 10mm from fusion firearms. I love the round. The 20 has similar recoil IMO to a full size .38 +p revolver, and the 29 isnt too much to handle. Brass is expensive but the internet is a wonderful thing, DoubleTap makes awesome loads in a variety of weights, and georgia arms make affordable target loads.
 
#11 ·
Hi TallyG! I sent you a PM with some information in response to your question. Basically I had seen that info posted several times in the Sig Forum whenever there would be one of those spirited "caliber war" threads in the forum.

I did some Google-fu and found it posted along with some commentary in The High Road Forum. It appears to be from a study done by a man named Doug Carr.

Here is that link. Scroll down to Post# 50.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...Comparisons&start=100&ndsp=20&um=1&hl=en&sa=N
 
#13 ·
That was a really interesting photo..

Got me to think about the different ammo, caliber and size..Besides from reading online, is there somewhere I can get some classes on how to identify and recognize a bullet? Getting the ballistics and learn what the different is?

Even the basic, such as "ranking" the bullet in size, is that simple as saying 22. 9. 40 and 45? Then where does the 10mm and 44 along with the 357 and "weird" calibers like 500 fits in?
 
#14 ·
From the report:

If you remove the human element (your ability to shoot, for example) and limit your comparison to bullet performance its hard to argue with "bigger is better". Despite lower simple energy numbers, bigger and particularly heavier bullets carry more stopping power potential and this is clearly substantiated in history.

I'd like to know the name of the author who's has been quoted. Clearly the author is stating opinion as fact here as the 125 grain 357 held the best track record on all pistol bullets for decades, even over the vaunted 45acp, and by quite a margin as well.

Don't believe everything you read in this quoted article, there are opinions stated as facts that history actually has shown to be incorrect.

Brownie
 
#17 ·
Point is that bullet placement, amount or rounds on target, bullet speed, bullet design, bullet weight, target location (what am I shooting at body in shirt, jacket, BA, etc etc) plus target structure such as Body shot, big guy, small guy, side on, head on, head shot, range of body etc etc All play into the performance and outcome.

If you want to keep it simple, regardless to caliber, the general rule is you want good penetration with maximum energy transfer to put the body down......Job done.
 
#18 · (Edited)
can't remember where I found the link but I thought of this to be pretty accurate
Ballistics as viewed in a morgue
good reference, too

"I'm not schooled in ballistics and I make no assumptions that require that I be. I'm only stating what I've seen in the morgue, which I consider to be the finest university of self-defense. I'm far from an expert in ballistics, but having been a cop for seven years, a hunter and avid handgunner for half a century, and having seen thousands of autopsies gives me a unique perspective."

"It's PENETRATION. Pure and simple. Give me guaranteed penetration to the vital organs with whatever caliber you like and I'll take it to a gunfight any day, 9mm included. As I said in another post, you don't have to shred the heart, just hit it, and a BG with an artery nicked by a 9mm is just as bad off if it were hit with a .45"
-gc
 
#19 · (Edited)
can't remember where I found the link but I thought of this to be pretty accurate
Ballistics as viewed in a morgue
good reference, too

-gc
GlockComa,

I went round and round with this guy over his more than obvious subjective choice of the 45acp and in the final analysis it came down to the fact that Every one of the people he talks about were on a slab and had been killed with every caliber of bullet.

His view is jaded IMO. Those people ALL died from bullets. For his "opinion" about the 45acp to be correct, the majority of people he viewed would have had to have been killed with that caliber. As well, the majority of shootings he's seen are with ball ammo, where the 45acp will reign supreme over most other pistol bullets.

What was I carrying today? A Glock 30, 45acp. What am I carrying tonight when I go out to that party I have to attend? Two 38 snubs, one in each back pocket. I'm no more well armed with the 45 than I am with the two snub 38's. Why? Because I'm capable of carrying one of the best loads, if not the best load in each caliber [ unlike his streets morgue results the majority of time ]. In carrying a representative of the best loads in each caliber, the differences between their effectiveness is minimized to the point of almost not worth mentioning.
 
#21 ·
Ya, that link isn't the complete thread contents that ran on that forum and one other I believe. He flat out stated he wouldn't carry anything but a 45acp caliber weapon, and then also admitted later that he was a "gamer" and shot nothing but the 1911's in 45acp as well.

I like the damned 45acp caliber myself [ having predominantly carried it for no less than 28 years on the streets ], but I'm a little more open minded about what good bullets are capable of in other calibers as well.

To be quite frank, I've carried a 9mm glock for almost 5 years steady now with the occasional back and forth with the 45acp caliber platforms. I like both, I trust both but then I buy only the best performers in their respective calibers and there isn't a hill of beans difference in their effectiveness on the street.
 
#24 ·
This thread has turned into....:deadhorse

:rolf
 
#26 ·
While this topic has been :deadhorse, it is SO important since virtually EVERY new shooter (and we want to encourage more of these), and almost every experienced shooter debates this topic over and over, until they come to the decision that works best for them.

Frankly, I have never been in an SD shootout, thankfully. Hope I never need to be. But I do believe that the adrenaline rush, and the horror of it actually happening, RIGHT NOW, when you didn't expect it, is likely to reduce the accuracy and confident shooting of all but the most experienced and extremely well trained.

That being said, I must assume my shot placement will vary widely from shooting holes in paper, so I'd like to have MORE rounds available. And for that reason right now I prefer to carry 9mm. 16 rounds vs 7 or 8 in .45 ACP, at the same or less weight (I don't care about cost of ammo - whatever it cost my life is worth more). So I carry Gold Dots or Golden Sabres at +P loadings.

If I miss a few shots, I haven't lost half my defensive rounds.

Just IMHO of course.

And when I look at the ballistic gel photos and read the FBI ballistics reports, and all the 'expert' opinions on wound penetration depth vs expansion and wound cavity size, and you add that to 'who knows what the BG will be wearing (vest, sweater, hoodie, etc), I'd like a bit more velocity, in addition to having more rounds. With an extra mag, I'm good for 31 rounds of +P in 9mm, and if I can't do the job with that, or use that to buy time to get away, my ass is probably grass anyway.

And since my wife carries 9mm (with same make of gun), when we are out together it makes it easier for us to swap mags if there's a failure, so overall, for ME (YMMV), that makes a lot of sense.

When I have an important decision to make, I usually write up a pros and cons list, and here's mine for caliber:

9mm PROS vs. .45ACP:

Higher capacity to carry - Same size and weight gun carries twice the number of rounds vs .45
No recoil problems, even with +P
Ammo is plentiful
Can swap with wife if needed
Lots of practice with this caliber and load

CONS:
A bit less 'stopping power' (which I believe to be only ONE of the decision criteria, and not as important and placement and penetration)

Wasn't a hard choice for me.

I am sure similar lists for .45ACP could easily show advantages for .45, but I love having more rounds in the gun for my EDC.
 
#27 ·
I also carried 45's for a long time and love the round,very accurate actually as has been proven in slowfire matches time and again.
In the dark ages of lead bullets that didn't do much except penetrate in both rifle and pistol calibers,it's true that large calibers were not just better but necessary. Bullets have changed as has propellants and we know a lot more now about what it takes to really stop someone than we ever have,due to the extensive medical research.

I carry 9mm's today and we have some very nasty performing loads to choose from.I still love the big calibers,probably just nostalgia,and if I were in big bear country a lot I'd want the largest thing I could handle. In reality any of the service calibers will do fine if your training with that sidearm is adequate. These days I will hardly ever even get into a discussion of caliber, in handguns especially. I think we've reached the pinacle of developement in handgun bullets and I'm quite satisfied with where we've landed. Train with what you have,pick one of the good performing loads for your weapon and don't sweat it.

Incidentally,I'm sure most of you realize that the 10mm nuclear bullet in the photo was photoshopped into the picture as a joke. As far as the Doubletap ammo,serious testing by practiced ballisticians has shown that the claims have not always been valid. Most of the time,in fact. There is only so much you can do with existing bullet technology,even as good as it is.

I'm thinking we should totally abandon the term "stopping power" except as it applies to disc brakes. In the ballistic definition of the term it is mostly fallacy anyway. What we want to be discussing is terminal ballistic requirements that have been established as fact by years of legitimate research in the labs and on the streets by the IWBA and the FBI standards.

We're way,way past the good ol'boy *******"Whoopie,that thangs got a whallop!" stage.
 
#30 ·
An interesting note; I work as a firefighter paramedic. Every time I have spoke with trauma surgeons about this topic they all have mentioned that when they get a GSW patient they are never able to tell any difference in the size of the wound channel between hand gun cartridges. Take that for whatever it's worth...
 
#31 ·
An interesting note; I work as a firefighter paramedic. Every time I have spoke with trauma surgeons about this topic they all have mentioned that when they get a GSW patient they are never able to tell any difference in the size of the wound channel between hand gun cartridges. Take that for whatever it's worth...
In speaking with two coroners while working an investigation, they have stated the same thing. That doesn't suggest all rounds are created equal though, just that cursory views of a GSW don't give a clear indication of caliber or destruction of tissue past skin deep until they get to cutting.
 
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