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Business "No Firearms" posting?

9K views 67 replies 18 participants last post by  deadeyedick 
#1 ·
I am looking in the Florida Statutes and cannot locate the section regarding CC in a business that has a "NO FIREARMS" sign conspicuously posted for all to see, like in a store window/door or office door.

Can someone please direct me to that statue that deals with this issue?

I have looked thru the forum but cannot locate an old thread addressing this issue...might have been done but can't find.

Thanks
BC
 
#2 ·
http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=3816&highlight=armed+trespass

I assume you're saying that Florida statute does not have a provision allowing a business to prohibit/restrict the carrying of a handgun? That's true, I don't know of an "opt-out, gun-free zone" provision myself. Anyone?

However, Gutmacher points out that you can still be arrested for armed trespass: "Trespassing on the property of another while in possession of a firearm, loaded or not -- is a third degree felony". A couple pages of discussion, but he makes two points:

1) It's unclear if the mere act of ignoring the sign constitutes trespass. (Which means it's up to the arresting officers, the prosecutor, the judge, the jury ... )

2) If you're caught carrying and asked to leave, it's definitely armed trespass if you stay and argue your rights.
 
#3 ·
Those signs are not legally binding in Florida. You can carry regardless of the sign. If your firearm is discovered you can be asked to leave the premises. If you refuse to leave you could then be charged with armed trespass a felony otherwise not a thing the business can do. Obviously I am not talking about the Post Office, Schools, Court Houses etc. It is illegal there to carry even if there are no signs.
 
#5 ·
You can carry anywhere but those listed below.

Signs have no authority but the warnings about armed trespass could/would apply.

790.06 (12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
 
#6 ·
Business No Fireams Posting vs CCW

Thanks everybody, I think I understand more fully now. It would seems most prudent to not CC into a place with an obvious sign. Best not leave the decisions concerning your welfare up to the LEO, Judge & Jury in this case. And, since there is some confusion whether it is illegal even if you are not discovered, (just being in possession could be judged an illegal act). I think it would be better to leave it in the car or find another business to do business with. Personally, I do not want to even associate with someone who is anti-gun, much less give them some of my hard earned money.

And, trying to argue a political point with a liberal leads only to frustration as facts & figures always confuse them anyway.

And, the writer is correct in stating your agreement with the law when you applied for CCW is binding. Ignorance of the statutes is no legal defense.

BC
 
#7 ·
Thanks everybody, I think I understand more fully now. It would seems most prudent to not CC into a place with an obvious sign. Best not leave the decisions concerning your welfare up to the LEO, Judge & Jury in this case. And, since there is some confusion whether it is illegal even if you are not discovered, (just being in possession could be judged an illegal act). I think it would be better to leave it in the car or find another business to do business with. Personally, I do not want to even associate with someone who is anti-gun, much less give them some of my hard earned money.

And, trying to argue a political point with a liberal leads only to frustration as facts & figures always confuse them anyway.

And, the writer is correct in stating your agreement with the law when you applied for CCW is binding. Ignorance of the statutes is no legal defense.

BC
Since the BGs won't honor the sighs I think find someplace else to shop would be the right thing to do.

I have never seen a no firearms sign though to be hones I don't always loo. If I did see one then I would find someplace else to shop.
 
#15 ·
Lets look at this scenario from a different perspective.

The store owner determines you might be carrying a firearm due to some printing under a shirt [ or for whatever reason he believes you are armed ].

He DOESN'T have anyone approach you and ask if you are armed against the store policy and just calls the local LE to the store.

He does this because he doesn't know what your intentions are if you are armed and ignoring the sign at the entrance. Could be he thinks you are there casing the place and waiting to rob the store [ after all, he doens't know you have a permit to carry, who you are, or that you aren't a criminal simply by looking at you ].

Locals arrive, and ask you to step off to the side where they can talk to you [ if you are lucky ], or maybe two of them strong arm you and don't provide you with a nice low keyed field inquiry and decide the manager is right, it looks like you are armed and ---

next thing you know, you're proned out and being "handled" as a person with gun until they can confirm you have a ccw to be carrying lawfully concealed [ BG's are just as likely to be carrying concealed as a licensed citizen is ].

So, the officers get you up, brush you off and have relieved you of the firearm. Everything seems in order with them as far as the license to carry concealed is concerned, they run you for wants and warrants, that comes back negative, you are clean with respect to not being a known felon or wanted.

Now what?---

Can an officer of the law then make a decision that your "intent" to carry past the no guns sign was still not honorable? Can you prove to the officer that your intention was honorable at that point as you have clearly ignored the no guns sign against the store owners/managers wishes?

Do you then tell the responding officers you don't have to obey the freakin sign as it's illegal and you can't be arrested for trespass until you are discovered to be in violation of the stores policy and that your intention was to ignore the owners wishes and if you were "made" and asked to leave you would comply at that time so no real trespass has occurred?

Are you going to play lawyer with the cops and try to explain all this while they have control of your firearm?

What do you think the responding officer/s COULD do if they were called by a store owner or manager who told dispatch there may be a man with a gun in his store and he's nervous because you appear to be carrying against store policy and he doesn't know you aren't about to rob him?
 
#20 ·
Now what?---

Do you then tell the responding officers you don't have to obey the freakin sign as it's illegal and you can't be arrested for trespass until you are discovered to be in violation of the stores policy and that your intention was to ignore the owners wishes and if you were "made" and asked to leave you would comply at that time so no real trespass has occurred?
This has been discussed many times here. I am one of those who believe that " no firearm " signs such as this are not enforcible according to Florida Statute 790.06 ( License to carry concealed weapon or firearm ), thus it is NOT enforcible by a LEO.


If I find myself in such a situation, I will comply with all of the officer's instructions, but I will " advise " the LEO that no where in 790.06 does it say that a Florida Concealed Weapon & Firearm License holder cannot carry in a " signed " area.

If he insists that it does, I would request that he show me where it does.

If he agrees that the sign does not restrict me, I will then advise him that I understand the owner wishes me to leave his premises, and I will do so to refrain from violating the Florida Criminal Trespass Statute.

If the officer insists that the sign is enforcible then I will save my breath, allow myself to be taken into custody, then contact an attorney to get the charges dropped.

Once the charges are dropped, I will then proceed with Civil Litigation against the LEO, the Agency, and the city, county or state who employees that LEO for legal fees and whatever punitive damages necessary for a violation of my Civil Rights.

The only way that " We the People " are going to educate those who do not understand the law is to make a " precedent caselaw " that can be used in the future to insure that OUR civil rights are protected.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Ok, Brownie, good point.

Here's my question; what if you legitimately did not see the sign?

(I'm personally on the lookout for them but what if?)
Good question, but your actions can bring an actionable response from LE, your intentions can not be determined with any absolution. If the cop wants to be a bad boy and play dirty, I think he could make a case that he believed your intentions were less than honorable and charge you right then and there.

That means off to the clink in cuffs, making bail, and hiring an atty. Now, if that happens and your atty proffers the idea to the court that the sign was technically illegal and you were not in violation of any state statute, hence his client was technically not breaking any law unless asked to leave, the next question is ---

Did you put a store manager/employee or owner in fear in some way by not "observing" the no guns sign when you entered. I don't believe at that point you can convince the court of your "intention" but the point has been made to the court you put another in fear because you were armed and the call was made, tax money and resources were diverted from other calls, all because you didn't abide by the sign/s to begin with.

From what I've seen here on this forum, everyone is expecting the store employee or manager/owner to ask you if you are carrying and then asking you to leave [ which you would then comply with the request and all is well in who'sville ]. What if he sees the gun for some reason and just calls LE about a man with a gun?

Dispatcher:

"Man with a gun in your store? You have signs stating no guns at the entrance to your store? He's making you nervous because you saw he has a gun? We'll get officers there asap sir/maam. Do not approach him/her, do nothing to incite the customer until our people are on scene and they'll handle it."

The call goes out as a "man with a gun" call, see the party at blah blah blah store located at blah blah blah address. Description is white/black/oriental male, mid 20's, dungarees and white tank top. They roll on this call from dispatch with that information. Want to take a guess what COULD be their response when they arrive if you are lucky enough to get some aggressive hopped up cop that KNOWS he's responding to a complaint of a man with a gun?
 
#18 · (Edited)
thats crazy. The same thing can happen if you are in a store that does not have a sign. The sign is not relivent. The government already takes most of our rights away. I have legally applied for and received my license to carry a firearm. I never carry a firearm in places that I am not allowed to by law, but besides that, it goes where I go. Period.

Like I said, I can be arrested anywhere by a LEO who is not familar with the law and would have to go to jail and hire an attorney.

How many people on this site have been to a business that had a no firearms license and they were legally carrying anyway and went to jail???
 
#19 · (Edited)
thats crazy. The same thing can happen if you are in a store that does not have a sign. The sign is not relivent. The government already takes most of our rights away. I have legally applied for and received my license to carry a firearm. I never carry a firearm in places that I am not allowed to by law, but besides that, it goes where I go. Period.

Like I said, I can be arrested anywhere by a LEO who is not familar with the law and would have to go to jail and hire an attorney.

How many people on this site have been to a business that had a no firearms license and they were legally carrying anyway and went to jail???
Incorrect, the sign would likely be very relevant to the store owner/manager or employee who knows the sign is posted. The sign may not be relevant to you and perhaps not to the state/courts technically, but you can't say the sign is not relevant, as it most certainly is to the store and very well could be to the responding officer who arrives on the scene.

Yes, the same thing CAN happen in a place of business that has no posted "no firearms/weapons/guns" sign. But the dispatcher doesn't hear " we have a no guns sign at the entrance" from the complaintent who may call, and that's a BIG difference.

How many people on this site have been to a business that had a no firearms license and they were legally carrying anyway and went to jail???

Are you suggesting because it hasn't happened to someone on this forum that the scenario I gave is not possible? Are you suggesting that the members here are the only people who are authorized to carry lawfully in Fla and disregard the no guns signs?

It appears you are suggesting that because it hasn't happened to a member here that it could not happen or has not happened in the past somewhere in Fla which you may be unaware of as it wasn't reported here in this small world of the forum.
 
#22 ·
There is the law and then there is justice. Don't go to court if you expect justice. You'll just find yourself tangled up in law.

I will respect a business' no guns policy if they post such where I can clearly see it before entering. I'll take my business where it's wanted. There is no place I need to go that badly.
 
#23 ·
All very interesting, but the fact that there is a sign or there isn't a sign does not prevent anyone in any store, business,mall etc from calling a Leo and saying " there is a man with a gun " In any event, you may end up on the floor handcuffed, at least temporarily. I choose not to spend my money in places that say " No Firearms " however there is no telling what will happen in any store if your weapon is spotted so conceal it well or expect that any of the scenarios previously described could happen.
 
#25 ·
All very interesting, but the fact that there is a sign or there isn't a sign does not prevent anyone in any store, business,mall etc from calling a Leo and saying " there is a man with a gun " In any event, you may end up on the floor handcuffed, at least temporarily. I choose not to spend my money in places that say " No Firearms " however there is no telling what will happen in any store if your weapon is spotted so conceal it well or expect that any of the scenarios previously described could happen.
We've agreed on this count. The difference is one has a sign you ignored which could bring consequences and in the other no sign exists so you aren't looking at potentially being "irresponsible" by ignoring the sign.

There is a difference if LE is called. What difference can't be determined until after the fact.
 
#24 · (Edited)
As a general rule, signage must conform to very distinct verbiage, graphics and posting specifications in order for it to have any legal authority attached to it (a good example of that is signage and marking requirements for handicapped parking spaces). There is no mention of such signage in the Florida Statutes, so there can be no legal authority attached to such signs. They're not the same as general 'No Trespassing' signs with legally-specified text, posted in intervals of X number of feet, etc. An establishment open to the public can't have people arrested on a complaint of trespassing simply for violating their store policies; otherwise, you could have people hauled off to jail for entering without wearing shoes in violation of a posted sign prohibiting bare feet! :rolleyes:

In Florida, a store policy prohibiting concealed carry has exactly same force of law as a store policy prohibiting outside food and drink - NONE. The store's only remedy when their policies have been violated is to eject the violator; if that individual then refuses to depart when commmanded to do so, only at that point has any law been broken.
 
#27 · (Edited)
A business owner

Brownie -

Excellent responses, thank you. You are spot on in everything you said. I have been hesitant to post this, knowing how others on this forum feel. However, I'll go ahead and be up-front:

1) My firm has a clearly posted "No firearms allowed past this point" sign on the door and at the receptionist desk.

2) If we suspect that someone is carrying concealed, we immediately call the police and report a "possible, man with a gun". Our position is, if the person ignored both signs, we are not going to confront him. For example, I don't know if he's on drugs, looking for an ex-girlfriend, etc.

3) Let's be realistic about getting caught. A number of us at the firm have carry permits. We're familiar with carry clothing and carry holsters and where most people carry, etc. You may get past reception, but there's a fair chance you'll be noticed eventually.

4) To this point we haven't prosecuted anyone for trespass. The hassle factor of dealing with law enforcement is sufficient to make our point. I would note that - should we choose to prosecute - we have attorneys on staff, as do most large businesses (such as the department stores or the mall itself). You on the other hand will be paying out-of-pocket.
 
#29 ·
Brownie -


1) My firm has a clearly posted "No firearms allowed past this point" sign on the door and at the receptionist desk.

2) If we suspect that someone is carrying concealed, we immediately call the police and report a "possible, man with a gun". Our position is, if the person ignored both signs, we are not going to confront him. For example, I don't know if he's on drugs, looking for an ex-girlfriend, etc..
Have you ever called LE? And if so, what was the outcome?
 
#28 ·
Are we back to this again? Carry past a clearly posted simple "No Firearms" sign, get caught and you may be banned from the store for life. Re-entry, in violation of a verbal trespass warning, can result in your arrest, even if you leave the store before law enforcement arrives. Carry past a clearly posted sign that specifies prosecution for trespass if you carry a firearm into a business may result in your arrest without a verbal trespass warning being issued, as well as a lifetime ban from the store. So read the signs carefully. Just a word to the wise.
 
#33 · (Edited)
How do you figure it makes a big difference. Do you think the dispatcher is going to tell the responding offiicers "be careful, he ignored a no gun sign?" come on. Do you think the dispatcher is going to ask the person on the line, do you have a no guns sign posted, cause if you do then we will respond differently then normal??

No I don't, I expect the store manager is going to state that to the dispatcher, the information has been passed to them, not asked. One of the reasons he's calling in to complain, they have a sign:rolf

There are a lot of left wing people out there trying to take away our guns and many other rights that we have. If you or anyone on this forum decides not to carry where there is a no firearm sign then that is wonderful. When I hear about people who make comments or post things that seem to suggest that they should have their rights more restricted then what the law already does, then I think of that as being someone that is anti 2a.

I haven't suggested anything in this thread one way or the other. I've suggested a scenario that could play out at any time. If you re-read the posts, and see where I've suggested anywhere you should or shouldn't ignore the signs, please quote it

In fact, I don't believe I've personally stated my position on carrying into those establishments where no weapons/firearms signs exist at the entrances in any of these types of threads. Consequently, no one on this forum knows if I personally ignore the signs or not. :D
 
#38 ·
I haven't suggested anything in this thread one way or the other. I've suggested a scenario that could play out at any time. If you re-read the posts, and see where I've suggested anywhere you should or shouldn't ignore the signs, please quote it

In fact, I don't believe I've personally stated my position on carrying into those establishments where no weapons/firearms signs exist at the entrances in any of these types of threads. Consequently, no one on this forum knows if I personally ignore the signs or not. :D

I am going to take a stab at this one. I believe that other people on this site look to you as a knowledgeable person and they read what you say and think you know what your talking about. Then you post something saying that if you carry a gun when there is a no gun sign you could have the law called on you and you can go to jail and you will have to pay for an attorney. That kind of stuff normall scares people and they want to avoid jail. So they probably listen to you and decide not to carry when there is a no gun sign. We already discussed that you are just as equally likely to get arrested by a LEO who is not familar with the statute and arrest you for something other than a sign. You can be arrested for anything, be it right or wrong, you can be arrested.

There may also be other people who search for "no gun sign" on google and may get this thread as a result, then they read what you post and think that you know what your talking about, so they should not carry.

Lets stand up for our rights and post things that support our rights under the law and tell people what they should do if they are arrested even though they were following the law.

kind of like TampaSsgt did below

If the officer insists that the sign is enforcible then I will save my breath, allow myself to be taken into custody, then contact an attorney to get the charges dropped.

Once the charges are dropped, I will then proceed with Civil Litigation against the LEO, the Agency, and the city, county or state who employees that LEO for legal fees and whatever punitive damages necessary for a violation of my Civil Rights.

The only way that " We the People " are going to educate those who do not understand the law is to make a " precedent caselaw " that can be used in the future to insure that OUR civil rights are protected.
 
#34 ·
Listen Up!

If you conceal your weapon, as prescribed by law, then no one will know that you are carrying, and no one will be calling a LEO.

-TampaSsgt
Distinguished Member
I find it amazing that you even have to say that. I would think it elementary to KNOW this. Key words being "as prescribed by law". For anyone who doesn't know this basic tenet, these guys thought they taught you better and are pretty ticked!


 
#39 ·
Business No Fireams Posting vs CCW

It seems to me we are all missing one salient point and that is respecting the wishes of the establishment owner. He has chosen to post his desire not to have weapons in his place of business. Whether you agree with his wishes is not important here. Whether "technically he is wrong" is not the issue. Law-abiding citizens must respect the preferences of a law-abiding businessman. If a sign is posted that is not relevant or that could be unenforceable, too bad...it is simply what the owner wants on his premises. All potential clients/customers are honor-bound to do what is asked. Now, we are not talking about a NO CHINESE or NO BLACKS or NO SHORT PEOPLE, those would come under a discrimination statute. We are talking about something that allows personal choice and we have the choice of entering the place of business...or not. We cannot have a choice and then deny others their choice can we?

We should never force a confrontation just because of political differences. Doing so can end up lumping all gun owners into one unpleasant group...and that is what the anti-gun crowd wants to do -paint all with one brush for media consumption. If the sign says "Stop Here On Red", then you stop, regardless of whether you agree with the rule or not. Same with No Smoking or No Littering or No Yelling Fire! If you disagree with a law, then work hard to get it changed, but until you are successful you are obliged to obey it, that is if you are law-abiding. If you choose to disobey the law, regardless of its fairness or unfairness, then you must be prepared to suffer the consequences. That is how a representative democracy works when establishing the rule of law.
 
#41 ·
We should never force a confrontation just because of political differences. Doing so can end up lumping all gun owners into one unpleasant group...and that is what the anti-gun crowd wants to do -paint all with one brush for media consumption. If the sign says "Stop Here On Red", then you stop, regardless of whether you agree with the rule or not. Same with No Smoking or No Littering or No Yelling Fire! If you disagree with a law, then work hard to get it changed, but until you are successful you are obliged to obey it, that is if you are law-abiding. If you choose to disobey the law, regardless of its fairness or unfairness, then you must be prepared to suffer the consequences. That is how a representative democracy works when establishing the rule of law.

with all due respect sir, you are not comparing the same things. The law says that I stop on red, so I do. The Law says that I cant smoke in a restuarant and I dont (I dont smoke anyway but you get the point). The law does not say that I can not carry in a business where there is a sign.

I can not fight to change a law that does not exist.
 
#67 ·
What it all boils down to is business owners think their right is being violated
, but my opinion is when a person owns a business he gives up certain rights
since he is asking you to come and spend money. I say that his home is different , he has more rights since it is private and not open to the public as his business is. So Atlanta guy I am glad you are not in Florida and I hope enough customers are sheep and let you make a living but I wouldnt be one of them. Ed
 
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