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You see a lot of people running and yelling "shooter!" What do you do?

8K views 56 replies 18 participants last post by  BeerHunter 
#1 ·
So, this post was inspired by the false alarm at the Boca mall. It's not the first time such a thing has happened.

So, it raises the question: What would YOU do?

I've already had this conversation with my kids (before this incident). You have to be careful about getting caught up in a panic. My daughter is rather petite. She could EASILY be trampled. I've taught her to move to the edges / side of the flow of people.... get out of the way.

Me? If I did not PERSONALLY witness or CLEARLY hear what are gunshots (or other threats), I'm NOT going to automatically run. I WILL get out of the way of the stampede, though. Let the fools run over each other. I will step aside and find cover, if possible.

On the other hand, I've also taught my daughter that when there is a clear threat, to IGNORE orders to stay where she is. I've taught her to GTFO. I've taught her that GTFO means doing whatever it takes, including throwing a chair through a window.

OK... let's hash this out! Go! :)
 
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#2 ·
Agreed^^^^^^

Even if I didn’t hear the “gun shots” myself and see the stampede headed my way, I will step aside while taking cover. But, I WILL gtfo as quickly as possible making sure my loved ones are with me. You have to remember also that most stores (if not all) will have a rear entrance/exit. Instead of running down the middle of the mall with the stampede, I would go into a store and look for the rear exit. Of course, you should know the layout of the mall you are in. I make it a point to study the store map and all exits available to me and my loved ones to gtfo.

Here is a question to add to your scenario.

What if your loved ones are at one end of the mall and you are at the other? Gun shot ring out, everyone starts panicking... Do you go towards where you last knew the location of your loved ones or gtfo and hope they get out safely?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#3 ·
Agreed^^^^^^

Even if I didn’t hear the “gun shots” myself and see the stampede headed my way, I will step aside while taking cover. But, I WILL gtfo as quickly as possible making sure my loved ones are with me. You have to remember also that most stores (if not all) will have a rear entrance/exit. Instead of running down the middle of the mall with the stampede, I would go into a store and look for the rear exit.
Yep!
 
#5 ·
^^ As I understand it (but have not verified) all mall stores must have a rear exit. This exit may lead to a service corridor or directly to the exterior of the mall. As above, rather than run with the pack I would enter the nearest store, find the rear exit, and work my way outside. All the while on alert for any indication that a shooter is nearby, and scanning for cover to duck into/behind if the need should arise.

I would not move about gun in hand, but would be ready to draw if necessary.

Highly unlikely I would be far from my family when we visit the mall. Nothing pre planned, just the way we typically shop . . . we walk around together.
 
#6 ·
Excellent thread, racer and I've trained my family the same way; don't panic and run with the herd of sheeple. Step aside and get out of the way to avoid being trampled, seek cover, if possible, and in a legitimate threat, GTFO through a store to a rear exit, not with the mindless hoard.

Agreed^^^^^^

Even if I didn’t hear the “gun shots” myself and see the stampede headed my way, I will step aside while taking cover. But, I WILL gtfo as quickly as possible making sure my loved ones are with me. You have to remember also that most stores (if not all) will have a rear entrance/exit. Instead of running down the middle of the mall with the stampede, I would go into a store and look for the rear exit. Of course, you should know the layout of the mall you are in. I make it a point to study the store map and all exits available to me and my loved ones to gtfo.

Here is a question to add to your scenario.

What if your loved ones are at one end of the mall and you are at the other? Gun shot ring out, everyone starts panicking... Do you go towards where you last knew the location of your loved ones or gtfo and hope they get out safely?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very unusual for me to shop with family at a mall and even more unusual for me to separate from my family when I do. If we were separated for some reason, I'm not going to GTFO and hope they did, too. I'd be moving toward their last known location in attempt to reunite, if at all possible with EDC still in in their holster and sheath, but ready to deploy RFN, if necessary.
 
#9 ·
Boca Town Center / Shelter in place order.

So I go to Town Center mall sometimes.. Watching all the stuff that happened yesterday got me wondering.. The Boca Police issued a shelter in place order. I pictured myself in a store with my wife..

Then what? Do you draw your weapon? or at least expose it so you can get to it? Do you announce to others around that you are carrying? Do you just stand behind the clothing racks hoping a shooter doesn't walk in with his weapon already drawn and hope you can get under your shirt draw and aim fast enough..

Even IF you are successful.. I think the odds are still pretty high you get taken out by 4 or 5 amped up 25-year old cops with AR's who are going to eventually see you.. Even if you don't expose your weapon do you then identify yourself to the police when they show up to escort you out?

There's not many good ways for this to end...

Any thoughts?

Greg
 
#10 · (Edited)
So I go to Town Center mall sometimes.. Watching all the stuff that happened yesterday got me wondering.. The Boca Police issued a shelter in place order. I pictured myself in a store with my wife..

Then what? Do you draw your weapon?

NO.

or at least expose it so you can get to it?

NO

Do you announce to others around that you are carrying?

HELL NO.

Do you just stand behind the clothing racks hoping a shooter doesn't walk in with his weapon already drawn and hope you can get under your shirt draw and aim fast enough..

Me? I'm going to do what I think is best for me (and my loved ones) in the circumstances, as I assess them. That may be staying in place. It may be finding better cover. It may be leaving regardless of what someone else "orders" me to do.

Even IF you are successful.. I think the odds are still pretty high you get taken out by 4 or 5 amped up 25-year old cops with AR's who are going to eventually see you.. Even if you don't expose your weapon do you then identify yourself to the police when they show up to escort you out?

Not following there. Whaaa?

There's not many good ways for this to end...

I can think of a very good way for it to end... me and my family alive and at home. But, yeah... if you do any of what you suggested above... unholstering (unless you need to USE your gun), exposing, announcing, etc.... it will not likely end well

Any thoughts?

Greg
See bolded above.

BTW, we already have a thread on this topic: https://www.floridaconcealedcarry.c...and-yelling-quot-shooter!-quot-What-do-you-do
 
#12 · (Edited)
Again, depending on the situation... a locked door isn't keeping me in, if I don't want to be in. If I think it's best to GTFO, I'm doing just that. We can do it the easy way or the hard way, but we're doing it.

I'm reminded of this very compelling story about a man and his wife and children trapped in the L.A. riots. They were at a theater, and security tried to stop them from leaving. He left.

If I determine it's best to leave, I'm LEAVING.

A lot of people who died in the WTC (9/11) in NY were told to stay put, instead of evacuating the building.

PS... Cops won't know I'm carrying, because I won't announce it, expose it, or unholster it (unless I need to use it "RFN").
 
#14 ·
Duplicate threads merged and in both cases, what racer wrote! :grin
 
#15 ·
I’ve been going through the same thought process as I do every time a situation like this arises. The only conclusion I have ever come do is there are no real hard/fast rules. It’s really going to boil down to our individual judgement and the specific situation.

If I had to pick some personal starting points though (again subject to change depending on the situation)

1 Uncovering. Most likely I would if the situation seemed very active. Before doing so though I would seriously consider advising the others around me to prevent them mistaking me for a bad guy

2 Drawing. Unlikely unless the threat was in my immediate vicinity

3 Concern about LEO mistaking me for bad guy. That is going to be one of the hardest parts. Do you unload and toss your gun out first? Or possibly leave it behind (if you are last out) and inform the LEOs? Obviously announcing (using very careful terminology) and moving slowly and directly in compliance with instructions is crucial

4 Informing those around you. Falls in line with #1 but as far as how you do it. People are going to be stressed and panicked and not necessarily comprehending. If you are carrying you should be somewhat more level headed and it may be the time to “take control”. Speak in an calm authoritative decisive tone and people will be likely to follow you and may be less likely to be suspicious of you and more trusting if you decide to uncover/announce. You also have to be aware of other people’s impression of you. Are you in business clothes with a tie. Might be easier to get people to calm down and trust you. Personally I’m always in shorts a T-shirt and flip flops. Probably not going to help me so I would be relying more on my demeanor. Seems trivial but it’s something to keep in mind. I’m an airline pilot so I have seen first hand the effect of a uniform on people’s actions/attitude.

5 Watch out for accomplices. Before doing anything to identify yourself look around and assess the situation. Think about the guy in Vegas that stepped in to protect people and got shot because he didn’t realize there was a second shooter that was laying low

6 people in stressful situations lose a lot of their common sense (and many are lacking to begin with). You may be confronted with hysterical people.

7. Consider putting your phone on recording mode to document what you do and say. And then don’t do or say anything stupid!

8 Remember that the litmus test for your actions is going to hinge on the world Reasonable which has a varying definition depending on who you are talking too and who is on the jury

Just my thoughts. Looking forward to hearing others


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#17 ·
I’ve been going through the same thought process as I do every time a situation like this arises. The only conclusion I have ever come do is there are no real hard/fast rules. It’s really going to boil down to our individual judgement and the specific situation.

If I had to pick some personal starting points though (again subject to change depending on the situation)

1 Uncovering. Most likely I would if the situation seemed very active. Before doing so though I would seriously consider advising the others around me to prevent them mistaking me for a bad guy

Agree

2 Drawing. Unlikely unless the threat was in my immediate vicinity

Agree.

3 Concern about LEO mistaking me for bad guy. That is going to be one of the hardest parts. Do you unload and toss your gun out first? Or possibly leave it behind (if you are last out) and inform the LEOs? Obviously announcing (using very careful terminology) and moving slowly and directly in compliance with instructions is crucial

I absolutely would not "leave it behind." That would not even occur to me. A really BAD idea, if you ask me.

4 Informing those around you. Falls in line with #1 but as far as how you do it. People are going to be stressed and panicked and not necessarily comprehending. If you are carrying you should be somewhat more level headed and it may be the time to “take control”. Speak in an calm authoritative decisive tone and people will be likely to follow you and may be less likely to be suspicious of you and more trusting if you decide to uncover/announce. You also have to be aware of other people’s impression of you. Are you in business clothes with a tie. Might be easier to get people to calm down and trust you. Personally I’m always in shorts a T-shirt and flip flops. Probably not going to help me so I would be relying more on my demeanor. Seems trivial but it’s something to keep in mind. I’m an airline pilot so I have seen first hand the effect of a uniform on people’s actions/attitude.

Agree again, except the flip-flops. To me, the ONLY place(s) where flip-flops are appropriate is the beach / pool. In any other environment, they are a dangerous liability. Running in flip-flops to escape danger is just a huge compromise. I won't let my kids wear them anywhere when we're "out and about."

5 Watch out for accomplices. Before doing anything to identify yourself look around and assess the situation. Think about .the guy in Vegas that stepped in to protect people and got shot because he didn’t realize there was a second shooter that was laying low

Agree with looking out for accomplices... situational awareness Condition Red until clear of potential danger.

6 people in stressful situations lose a lot of their common sense (and many are lacking to begin with). You may be confronted with hysterical people.

Agree. That's why I'm not following them or the stampede.

7. Consider putting your phone on recording mode to document what you do and say. And then don’t do or say anything stupid!

Can't argue with that. Whether I'll think of doing that is another story. Probably won't.

8 Remember that the litmus test for your actions is going to hinge on the world Reasonable which has a varying definition depending on who you are talking too and who is on the jury

Ideally... just GTFO with no conflicts or encounters.

Just my thoughts. Looking forward to hearing others


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See bolded above. :)
 
#18 ·
Agree with racer above, accept if by "uncovering" you mean unconcealing, I am most definitely NOT going from concealed to open carrying. If by "uncovering" you mean coming out in the open from cover, well that's situation dependent, but most likely not or even part of my plan of action. :dunno
 
#19 ·
Agreed. I'm not ever just "uncovering" to make the gun "more accessible." It will stay concealed until I absolutely need to USE it. My draw time from concealment is... well... just fine. :) I don't need to "stage" it by uncovering it. And, there are some identifiable DISadvantages to doing that in a crowded situation.

Good conversation. Timely conversation. Beneficial conversation.
 
#22 · (Edited)
First, this has nothing to do with the 2012 Aurora Co theater shooting. That is an outlier.

I have researched and taught egress theory, primarily as it pertains to large passenger aircraft. The FAA certification process requires enough exits to deplane all passengers, in a predetermined time period. Normally 90 seconds. This works in theory, but it does not work when passengers try and retrieve their overhead baggage or move to an exit that is the "wrong" way.

Research has shown that, in an emergency, people will tend to want to depart/exit an aircraft through he door through which they entered.

This research applies to other locations other than aircraft. For example in a theater, people will tend to move toward the " rear" doors. The doors through which then entered, even if clearly marked exits are closer to them on both sides of the screen in "front" of the theater.

Situational awareness, visualization, and a shared mental model can do wonders for you and your family. That starts at home. Talk to your family.

Know where the closest exit is. As the flight attendant always says "it may be behind you." More importantly it may not be the door through which your entered.

Have a plan to meet you family/friends/associates "off property" if you are separated. Chose a restaurant or other public facility that will not be immediately impacted by a police perimeter. The closer your car is to the faculty that is under attack, e.g. mall or theater, the harder it will be to get to your car and successfully egress the immediate area. In other words, the COPS are going to surround the place! You know the saying... nobody in or out. If I can't get to my car, or move my car, I would much rather be at the Denny's across the street drinking Ice Tea with my significant others than crouched down behind a dumpster. GTFO ASAP. Get outside the police perimeter so you can move freely based upon your personal analysis of the situation. Move to your predetermined extract point.

Of course if you are with your partner/family and you can get to you vehicle safely just BUG OUT but, that is going to have to happen fast before the perimeter is established.

I am amazed at the number of people that "stick around" out of curiosity to "see-what-happens." Just me, but I want to get away from the bomb, sniper, shooter, or nutcase as fast and far as I can. Even the guy with the big sword is going to attract men with guns. If there is a gun present, and it is not in MY hand then I'm leaving the scene. Nothing good happens when adrenaline filled people have guns. I like to watch a good drama unfold, but not enough to be part of it.

Next time you see the aftermath of a lock-down, notice everyone is leaving with their hands up and with guns at-the-low-ready pointed at them. The cops have no idea how many BGs there are. Sometimes the line of people are being searched. Note that student have to drop their backpacks on the way out of school. Again, get out before the perimeter is established. You can go back for your car later.

With that said, some of us are too old to run and need to be prepared to shelter in place. Be ready to make the best of that situation.

Just my thoughts for this afternoon.
 
#23 ·
F

I am amazed at the number of people that "stick around" out of curiosity to "see-what-happens." Just me, but I want to get away from the bomb, sniper, shooter, or nutcase as fast and far as I can. Even the guy with the big sword is going to attract men with guns. If there is a gun present, and it is not in MY hand then I'm leaving the scene. Nothing good happens when adrenaline filled people have guns. I like to watch a good drama unfold, but not enough to be part of it.

I've said the same thing MANY times. I am stunned at how often the news interviews someone who says, "I thought it was fireworks." I always yell at the TV: Was it a 4th of July show??? NO??? Then it's not fireworks, you nimrod!

Next time you see the aftermath of a lock-down, notice everyone is leaving with their hands up and with guns at-the-low-ready pointed at them. The cops have no idea how many BGs there are. Sometimes the line of people are being searched. Note that student have to drop their backpacks on the way out of school. Again, get out before the perimeter is established. You can go back for your car later.

Good advice. I agree. GTFO is my motto. Of course, it will be situationally-depedent.

With that said, some of us are too old to run and need to be prepared to shelter in place. Be ready to make the best of that situation.

Just my thoughts for this afternoon.
Yep!
 
#26 ·
Be that as it may... if I was separated (not likely) from my family, I'm going in. It's a very easy decision without any regard to any store's policy of closing the gate.
 
#29 ·
head for the food court...unattended the pickings would be fabulous...

if my family and i are separated i have to believe they are capable of making the right decisions and getting out using the most convenient method possible or finding suitable cover/concealment and hunkering down...i have no plans to traverse a mall involved in an active shooter situation with potential for multiple gunman...this isnt a movie...its real life...shooters dont giggle and wait to kill...they are usually quite opportunistic...my family needs me as much as i need them and foolish moves on my part arent going to help...my lifeline to them would be our cell phones and i would direct them if necessary...

observe...orient...decide...act...accurate observations should lead to wise decisions...
 
#39 ·
A handgun against a FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC MILITARY ASSAULT WEAPON OF WAR ?????????????????????
My, My My
Ronnie
:dunno
 
#52 ·
To answer your question as bluntly as possible: Who gives a f**k if there is a gate there when I find them?? I found them! Mission accomplished. If the gate is locked, then I'll find cover (if possible) and stand guard until it isn't locked. But, I'll likely instruct them to leave the store out the back... and to knock the $hit out of anyone who tries to stop them
Why it took three times being asked the same to get that simple answer I don’t know?
I have no point and would do the same as you. Was only asking about one specific aspect.
That’s ALL...

And since your name is Racer and you ‘hit it first’ I’m sure you’d find them pretty quickly. :rofl
 
#53 ·
And since your name is Racer and you ‘hit it first’ I’m sure you’d find them pretty quickly. :rofl
That's what she said! :p :grin
 
#56 ·
And if that was not enough fake news for the week, the bomb that exploded at the Montana school wasn't...

Montana authorities say a device they initially thought to be the remnants of a homemade bomb in an elementary school playground didn't explode – and it wasn't even a bomb.

Lewis and Clark County Sheriff Leo Dutton said Tuesday that further investigation found the plastic bottle wrapped in black tape was full of washers, nuts and bolts, along with a non-flammable unidentified liquid. There was no detonator attached to the bottle.

Dutton says a homeless person carried the bottle from a nearby construction site and left it in Helena's Rossiter Elementary School playground.

Initially, authorities said the bottle was an improvised explosive device that detonated sometime before school began. Dutton says authorities passed on information they believed to be true at the time, and that school officials acted appropriately.

:dunno
 
#57 ·
^^^^
:doh
 
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