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Application suspension

12K views 43 replies 15 participants last post by  Marlinluvr 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi all. New member here. I will try to be as brief as possible while being as thorough with the details as possible. I'm hoping that one of you may be able to give some solid advice on a possible course of action. I've been in the process of obtaining my permit for 110 days. October 2nd 2018 my application was received by the Dept. of Agriculture. Around December 8th, I received a notice of suspension of application. The reason, pursuant to Section 790.06(3), Florida Statutes, the application was suspended based upon criminal history indicating that on May 22nd 1989, 30 years ago, I was arrested or formally charged with 2 counts of DEADLY WEAPON-CONCEAL in Maryland. I was given the option to request an informal hearing at which I could present any documentation in regards to the final disposition of the case. Of course I chose that option rather than wait to see if they will ever receive or try to find out what the final disposition was. So I wait for a hearing to be scheduled and in the meantime, I make several calls in an attempt to obtain the police report or court records, to no avail. I even did online records search through the district and circuit courts of Maryland to find record of the case. Nothing. I should add that the arrest is legitimate and it's the only arrest I've ever had. I know I was never convicted but I don't recall the exact final outcome as far as if I had adjudication of guilt withheld. I believe that the charges were dropped and no further action was taken.

At any rate, I started to do some research on the laws in regards to this situation and came up with what I believe to be a suspension for a non disqualifiable crime. Here is why I believe this:

According to both Florida and Maryland laws, There are two different weapons charges, Concealed Weapon and Concealed Firearm. One is a misdemeanor, the other a felony. I think we all know which is the felony. Maryland law even states that a concealed weapon does not mean a firearm. Therefore, it would not have been a felony. I should also add that the concealed weapons were a knife and brass knuckles, not firearms.

According to Florida 790.06(3), disqualifiable crimes are either felonies, crimes of domestic violence, substance or alcohol abuse crimes or MISDEMEANOR CRIMES OF VIOLENCE. Stated on the D.O.A website under disqualifiable crimes, misdemeanor crime of violence is defined as a crime that involves use, attempted use or threatened use of violence against another person. Concealing a weapon is not a crime of violence unless used in an attempt to harm.

So, I gave up on trying to obtain final disposition and I wait for my hearing that was scheduled for Jan. 22 (yesterday) in Jacksonville. I arrive to the "hearing" to find out that I will be sitting in an empty conference room talking to a faceless voice on a speaker phone. I can't even look the person in the eyes that will be deciding if I can exercise my 2nd amendment right. Any way, I state my case based on the information I stated in the previous paragraphs. I feel confident in my understanding of the laws but I don't feel confident that this hearing officer agrees with or cares what the law states. In closing of the hearing, the hearing office made the comment that SHE would take my testimony into account in the decision and I will receive final decision in 2 to 4 weeks. Did I hear her right? A single, faceless, bureaucrat holds my 2nd amendment right in her hands?

So, I guess I wait to see. In the meantime I will continue to obtain record of final disposition of the arrest. My question is, am I wrong in my interpretation of the statutes? Is the arrest for a disqualifiable crime? Any insight would greatly appreciated.
 
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#10 ·
That's like saying I don't need a doctor because I self diagnosed heartburn. When I have a heart attack, I'll seek medical help.
In addition to their expertise, lawyers have a key to the system that gets them in the door and says that you are serious.
 
#4 ·
The thing is they may not draw the same conclusions you do regarding the laws, and they aren't going to spend time researching them all. If you got arrested and it was brought to a conclusion without a conviction, you're going to have to prove that to them. I think an attorney is the way to go, if for no other reason the attorney will be able to get an official response from the court in MD where you don't seem to be having much luck. I hope you get this resolved successfully.
 
#5 ·
I think your interpretation is a good one. If what you did was a misdemeanor and not a felony then even if you were convicted it's not disabling and therefore the final disposition of it should be irrelevant.

With any luck the person reviewing your case will arrive at the same conclusion and you'll be good to go. If not I would suggest getting your case in front of Florida Carry. They might get involved directly, but even if they don't you could hire Eric Friday (their staff attorney) to handle it for you. He works with DACS all the time and could get things done faster than anybody I'd guess.

Very nice write up by the way. Welcome to the forums!

P.S. If you're not already a member of Florida Carry you should strongly consider joining. They do more for Florida gun rights than anybody and are worthy of your support.
 
#6 ·
Thank you OHEng. I'm pretty confident at this point that it will have to be up to me to prove that there was no conviction, but isn't that backwards? I feel like I'm being charged for the crime again. And if I were to be tried for this crime in a court of law, the burden of proof would be on them.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Put yourself in their shoes... guy shows up saying he's been arrested for two counts of concealing a deadly weapon... but has no proof of the disposition of the case. Would you just take their word for it, or do you think your obligation as a licensing authority demands you make sure nothing is amiss before issue? Complicating this is that the charges were from 30 years ago, so it's not the same as being able to rely on electronic records from a couple years ago.

I know it seems to you like double jeopardy but that's the consequence of an arrest, which is why people say you don't want one on your record (because it will come back to bite you in the posterior later). I'm on your side here, I agree with your legal analysis, I'm simply saying expecting the licensing authority to agree with you is a coin toss.
 
#7 ·
Thank you BrianB. I will look into Florida Carry. I am still hopeful that whomever is the deciding person or group of people are decent humans and aren't just out to keep as many legally held guns off the street. Or maybe they are stooges for this new Commissioner, Nikki Fried.
 
#8 ·
As I suggested before, hire a lawyer YESTERDAY. I would not wait for their decision, it is possible it might not even be able to be appealed. A lawyer might be able to freeze this and preclude a decision being made without them having all the information. This is too important to wait.
 
#9 ·
In my years as a LEO, I have seen judges ignore the law when people represent themselves. When a Lawyer is there if they do the same they know they will hear more on the case. Even for minor traffic violations.
It really is a good idea to have a Lawyer when dealing with the judicial system.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I am unable to obtain an actual copy of the arrest report. All I have, and can assume they have, is a general report stating that I was arrested for two simple counts of DEADLY WEAPON-CONCEALED. Nothing saying how the police determined I had the weapons (search for what reason, was it in comitance of another crime), what the weapons were (if firearms, it's my understanding it would have to state FIREARM). (2) “Concealed firearm” means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.
(3)(a) “Concealed weapon” means any dirk, metallic knuckles, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.

I brought with me and quoted as reference, statutes such as, TitleXLVI 790.001 which defines the difference between concealed firearm and concealed weapon, 790.01 which lays out the charges for the two separate offences, 790.06(3) which articulates what constitutes a disqualifiable circumstance, ie... (misdemeanor crimes of violence) and even a page from their own web site under the Disqualifiable Conditions section, which defines a misdemeanor crime of violence.

This hearing was informal (over the phone) and the office that facilitated it (Jacksonville) said I could have these printouts scanned and sent to the hearing officer but stupid me, I assumed the hearing officer would be kept well abreast of the law and their own policies since the permitting process is a very serious and important situation, I just held them to use as reference.

It's my understanding that unless they receive final disposition stating I was convicted of a disqualifiable crime, and they DON'T find that on the information they have and my testimony to the hearing officer, they can only uphold the suspension not deny me. If that would be the case, I should have the opportunity to further pursue and get a lawyer involved.
 
#15 ·
Well, I opened the mailbox this afternoon and there it was, they are upholding the suspension. I have 30 days to file an appeal. They are stating that had I been convicted of the crime in question, I would be denied. Apparently, they do not seek any further for final disposition and it is all up to me to prove my innocence.

Are any of you in the Villages/ Summerfield area that can recommend an attorney qualified to handle these situations. I've only been able to find some in the Daytona and Jacksonville area. I guess those would be fine but would like to see if there are any close to me. I will also join Florida Carry and see what they can do.
 
#16 ·
Join Florida Carry and then talk to their attorney Eric Friday. Your attorney doesn't need to be local to you for this. Your attorney does need connections at the Department of Agriculture to minimize how much this will cost - and he has them.
 
#17 ·
Way past time to lawyer up! Good luck and I hope the right outcome happens for you!
 
#18 ·
"Are any of you in the Villages/ Summerfield area that can recommend an attorney qualified to handle these situations. I've only been able to find some in the Daytona and Jacksonville area. I guess those would be fine but would like to see if there are any close to me. I will also join Florida Carry and see what they can do."

Chuck Johnson in Leesburg. However, I highly recommend you follow BrianB's advice and contact Eric Friday. http://www.ericfriday.com.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Don't think that this doesn't happen all the time. I had a friend who I had convinced to get his CWFL he had a job delivering frozen pizzas in a semi ,he sent in all of his paperwork and started the dreaded wait. Then he stopped by with a letter and a 12 pack of bud I new it was serious because he was a cheap MF'er. It turns out he withheld the little fact that at age 21 he was busted with 2 Lb's of weed on his table 30 years ago. Long story short it was his first offence adjudication with held. It cost 5$ for a copy of final disposion and 12$ to overnight it to him so he could get it to them before the 90 days was up, 5 days to go. HE made it and was issued his license. Good luck!
 
#24 ·
An update to my situation. After several attempts to obtain final disposition on the case that is causing the suspension of my application, I have learned that the record of my case no longer exists in any court system in Maryland. I called the Dept. of Ag. to ask what I can do to possibly resolve this if the record no longer exists. They said, almost nonchalantly, just have the court send you a clerk certified letter stating the record no longer exists and that should be fine. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!! When I attended my informal hearing and told the woman that I was unable to obtain a record and that the courts told me it no longer existed, she never said that all I needed to do was get a letter stating that. Why can't these bureaucrats ever offer assistance in situations like this. We as the public don't know all the procedures and policies. It's almost like some of them want to make it as difficult as possible for us.

Anyway, I have drafted a letter to the court in Maryland asking for the clerk certified letter and hope to receive that soon so I can get it to Tallahassee ASAP.
I will post updates as they occur. Again, Thank you all for your words of advice and support. Brian
 
#34 ·
Just a quick update to my situation with the application suspension. I have received a letter or more appropriately, a status report, from the Maryland court stating that there is no record of the case in question. Today, I faxed it to the Tallahassee office with the suspension letter, as directed by the rep. I spoke with on the phone. I will also mail it registered with return receipt. Hopefully, this will straighten things out and I will receive my permit in a timely manner. I'm not holding my breath.
On another note, I have also been in contact with Eric Friday and he has shown interest in my situation and is working on some interesting things in order to reign in this horribly bureaucratic Department. Will update as things happen.
 
#35 ·
Thanks for the status update. Best of luck with this. I feel confident you will ultimately prevail. Once this is all worked out hopefully the matter will be conclusively laid to rest and won't trouble you again.
 
#39 ·
Yep. Lawyer up. With the right lawyer.
 
#42 ·
^^^^
Congrats on receiving your FCWFL, finally. :thumsup

Can you fill us in on what action Eric Friday of FloridaCarry took, if any that helped with your case?
 
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