Old Sawed Off Shotgun - Page 3
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 36

Thread: Old Sawed Off Shotgun

  1. #21
    Super Moderator
    BeerHunter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    PBC
    Posts
    24,098
    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    I'm still kinda pissed at him. Yeah, his client flew the coop, but still...
    -BH

    Member: Florida Carry, COTEP 766, SAF, GOA, NRA Endowment Life
    FFL 03, NRA CRSO & CI: P-R-S-PPITH
    Former USAF NCO 1980-1984, DoD 1987-Present
    Please consider joining NRA at www.nra.org and Florida Carry at www.floridacarry.org

    “The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution.”
    -- Thomas Jefferson, Third President of the United States

    "Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are commuting violence on their behalf."
    -- George Orwell


    "The ultimate result of shielding men from folly is to fill the world with fools."
    -- Herbert Spencer

  2. #22
    Distinguished Member TitleIIToyLover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    East Central Florida
    Posts
    4,690
    What is the statute of limitations for a civil "errors and omissions" action.

    Do you think we could find a way to have "standing"?

    There are only 3 colors, 10 digits, and 7 notes; it's how we arrange them that is important.

  3. #23
    Banned

    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    1,937
    Quote Originally Posted by TitleIIToyLover View Post

    If Miller's attorney would have just shown up for his court case, this all might be moot!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianB View Post
    I'm still kinda pissed at him. Yeah, his client flew the coop, but still...
    This is sarcasm, right?

    You do know that he was murdered by the government, right?

  4. Remove Advertisements
    FloridaConcealedCarry.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #24
    Senior Member gandrfab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Edgewater
    Posts
    1,551
    Quote Originally Posted by TitleIIToyLover View Post
    But, again, the terms sawn-off and sawed-off are slang terms and do not appear in the code.

    And, a sawed-off shotgun might be perfectly legal depending on how much was sawed off. It is not illegal to saw off a shotgun unless you saw off too much.

    And while we are at it, its not a suppressor, it is a silencer.

    Slang is OK unless you are actually trying to discuss the legal aspects of the NFA.

    If Miller's attorney would have just shown up for his court case, this all might be moot!!
    Lets say I saw the shot gun but no one else has seen said sawed shotgun does it really exist?

    Think, Schrödinger's pet cat.

  6. #25
    Distinguished Member BrianB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    New Skyview (Pinellas)
    Posts
    7,336
    Quote Originally Posted by gandrfab View Post
    Lets say I saw the shot gun but no one else has seen said sawed shotgun does it really exist?

    Think, Schrödinger's pet cat.
    It depends on if the tree hit it when it fell in the woods.
    NRA Certified Instructor (Pistol, Rifle, HFS, PPITH, PPOTH) and Chief Range Safety Officer
    Florida Carry Life Member, SAF Life Member, NRA Endowment Life Member
    Front Sight Distinguished Graduate, Defensive Handgun, Glock 35 and Glock 23
    FFL Type 7, Class 2 SOT (Licensed NFA Firearms Manufacturer)
    Need a defensive force "legal plan"? Consider Self Defense Fund (SDF). Feel free to PM me with questions.

  7. #26
    Distinguished Member TitleIIToyLover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    East Central Florida
    Posts
    4,690
    This is one of those situations when the owner of the contraband gun thinks to himself...who will even know?

    Years go by and the owner gets complacent and leaves it sitting in a corner in plain sight.

    And then he has a kitchen fire and the fire department comes and happens to see it and tells their buddy the deputy sheriff, who now has probably cause...

    Its not worth it. I would not be able to sleep at night if I had a bad gun in the house.
    There are only 3 colors, 10 digits, and 7 notes; it's how we arrange them that is important.

  8. #27
    Distinguished Member AFJuvat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    4,551
    Quote Originally Posted by TitleIIToyLover View Post
    This is one of those situations when the owner of the contraband gun thinks to himself...who will even know?

    Years go by and the owner gets complacent and leaves it sitting in a corner in plain sight.

    And then he has a kitchen fire and the fire department comes and happens to see it and tells their buddy the deputy sheriff, who now has probably cause...

    Its not worth it. I would not be able to sleep at night if I had a bad gun in the house.
    (Just throwing this out for the sake of discussion)

    If the owner legitimately did not know NFA rules, and did not know that the gun was a NFA item, is it really a crime?

    Lets be honest with ourselves, unless you are a serious gun person, you probably have NO idea what the NFA is, ir what it applies to.

    How many times have you heard from people and the media that silencers and machine guns are illegal for civilians to own?

    I seem to recall one of the acid tests for a criminal act is intent.

    Much like the old lady that turned in a fully functional, not NFA registered StG-44. By the wording of the NFA, she should have been charged with unlawful possession of a NFA weapon. Instead, they gave it to a museum rather than have it destroyed and she was not charged by the state, nor the federal government.
    To speak without thinking is to shoot without aiming.

    “There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.”

    https://www.thethreepercenters.org/

  9. #28
    Distinguished Member TitleIIToyLover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    East Central Florida
    Posts
    4,690
    Quote Originally Posted by AFJuvat View Post
    (Just throwing this out for the sake of discussion)

    If the owner legitimately did not know NFA rules, and did not know that the gun was a NFA item, is it really a crime?

    Lets be honest with ourselves, unless you are a serious gun person, you probably have NO idea what the NFA is, ir what it applies to.

    How many times have you heard from people and the media that silencers and machine guns are illegal for civilians to own?

    I seem to recall one of the acid tests for a criminal act is intent.

    Much like the old lady that turned in a fully functional, not NFA registered StG-44. By the wording of the NFA, she should have been charged with unlawful possession of a NFA weapon. Instead, they gave it to a museum rather than have it destroyed and she was not charged by the state, nor the federal government.
    Well, first let me say that my hypothetical started out "who is ever going to know?" hinting that he knew the gun was contraband.

    But now for your question.

    You are correct. The owner would have to know that a gun was contraband in order for all of the elements of the the crime to attach.

    Otherwise the rule of lenity would apply

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_lenity

    Case law on point:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/92-1441.ZO.html

    Also see: mens rea

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

    And because the NFA34 is very hard to understand, even after careful study, you may like this one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagueness_doctrine

    But, with all of that said, I speculate that the legal bill would be enormous.
    Last edited by TitleIIToyLover; 04-21-2018 at 04:39 PM.
    There are only 3 colors, 10 digits, and 7 notes; it's how we arrange them that is important.

  10. #29
    Distinguished Member BrianB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    New Skyview (Pinellas)
    Posts
    7,336
    It's good that you bring up Staples, because it is the closest case on point here, but in my opinion you mischaracterized the holding of Staples as it would apply to this case. Staples does not require that one know that the firearm is contraband in order for criminal sanctions to attach. Staples held that in order for a person to be prosecuted for having a contraband firearm the person must know, or reasonably should have known, that the firearm possessed the feature that subjects it to regulation. Whether or not you are aware of the regulation is irrelevant.

    So in this case the court would have to determine if the possessor of the shotgun knew, or reasonably should have known, that one or more barrels of the shotgun were shorter than 18 inches in length. If that can be proven then it is irrelevant whether or not the possessor knew such a shotgun was illegal.

    Unfortunately mens rea isn't as important as it once was. It used to be that it was almost impossible to be convicted of a crime without it. But now there are so many "strict liability" criminal offenses that one can even be convicted of felonies if the statute does not include the right language to bring mens rea into play.
    NRA Certified Instructor (Pistol, Rifle, HFS, PPITH, PPOTH) and Chief Range Safety Officer
    Florida Carry Life Member, SAF Life Member, NRA Endowment Life Member
    Front Sight Distinguished Graduate, Defensive Handgun, Glock 35 and Glock 23
    FFL Type 7, Class 2 SOT (Licensed NFA Firearms Manufacturer)
    Need a defensive force "legal plan"? Consider Self Defense Fund (SDF). Feel free to PM me with questions.

  11. #30
    Distinguished Member BrianB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    New Skyview (Pinellas)
    Posts
    7,336
    Quote Originally Posted by AFJuvat View Post
    If the owner legitimately did not know NFA rules, and did not know that the gun was a NFA item, is it really a crime?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by AFJuvat View Post
    Lets be honest with ourselves, unless you are a serious gun person, you probably have NO idea what the NFA is, ir what it applies to.

    How many times have you heard from people and the media that silencers and machine guns are illegal for civilians to own?

    I seem to recall one of the acid tests for a criminal act is intent.
    Used to be. But now many crimes are strict liability offenses and mens rea need not be proven. And of course ignorance of the law is no defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by AFJuvat View Post
    Much like the old lady that turned in a fully functional, not NFA registered StG-44. By the wording of the NFA, she should have been charged with unlawful possession of a NFA weapon. Instead, they gave it to a museum rather than have it destroyed and she was not charged by the state, nor the federal government.
    That's what prosecutorial discretion is for. When a person discovers a contraband item they must do something in order to divest themselves of it. Either destroy it or surrender it to the government. It will take time to do whatever they decide to do. It would be a miscarriage of justice to prosecute someone if they were taking steps to cure the contraband problem as soon as they became aware of it.
    NRA Certified Instructor (Pistol, Rifle, HFS, PPITH, PPOTH) and Chief Range Safety Officer
    Florida Carry Life Member, SAF Life Member, NRA Endowment Life Member
    Front Sight Distinguished Graduate, Defensive Handgun, Glock 35 and Glock 23
    FFL Type 7, Class 2 SOT (Licensed NFA Firearms Manufacturer)
    Need a defensive force "legal plan"? Consider Self Defense Fund (SDF). Feel free to PM me with questions.

Sposors

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •