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Traffic stop, can you politely refuse to be disarmed?

6K views 39 replies 17 participants last post by  NotXskinnyXBarbie 
#1 ·
We've talked about the 'do you have any guns' aspect during a simple traffic stop.
And that conversation has always revolved around your answer 'yes' or 'no'.

But I'm curious if you'd be within your rights to say 'yes I am. I am carrying one now for personal protection.'
Then officer may say and sometimes does 'for my own safety I'll need to disarm you.' or similar.
So question is is he legally allowed to do that?
Under what statute?
Can you legally and politely refuse to let him take your gun?

Of course you don't want to agitate the situation or anger the officer but are you within your rights to tell him 'I'd rather not let you do that.'
 
#4 · (Edited)
There are two attorney general opinion letters that I clearly remember, but can't find to save my life.

One was issued (I think) in 1988 or 1989 (but maybe 82 or 83) and asked if a LEO could lawfully disarm a FLCWFL holder during a traffic stop. The answer was YES, but I can't find the letter in order to review the rational.

One night a few years ago, i sat here for hours, year by year searching and could not find it.

For what it is worth, it is an enlightening experience to read every opinion, for the last 30 years, that has anything to do with guns.

If you are not knowledgeable with the AG opinion letter process, that is interesting in and of itself.

http://myfloridalegal.com/opinions
 
#5 ·
Do I smell a test case in the making? Make sure to only roll the window down 2" and not all the way, just to further unnecessarily irritate the leo. :rofl

In all reality, if I were to get this tude with the leo, I'd ask him if he could cite the statute that allows him to disarm me for his safety for a traffic stop/civil infraction. If he can cite it, then he's got the bat in the ball game. If he can't, he may do one of two things. Back up on the request or get further irritated.

If further irritated, request a supervisor be summoned on scene. Play it by ear, plan for the worst and expect to have some time on the side of the road, and potentially a free ride..
 
#10 ·
...plan for the worst and expect to have some time on the side of the road, and potentially a free ride..
This is the key. Are there circumstances where you are within your rights to refuse to be disarmed? Of course! That practically goes without saying.

Arguing with a cop on the side of the road, though, will almost never end well for you. In the long run you will probably be vindicated, and may even win some sort of judgment. But right then, that night, the odds are extremely high that you are going to end up being cuffed and stuffed.

If you're okay with that then argue away, and more power to you!
 
#7 ·
FS 901.051, “Florida Stop and Frisk Law,” draws a distinction between criminal laws and other infractions. Is the stop for a state, county or municipal criminal violation? Does the LEO have RAS to believe that you are violating some criminal law?

If both are answered in the negative, I'd argue that the LEO has no statutory authority to conduct any sort of search.

So if roll a stop sign and tell the LEO you are armed, he doesn't have authority to conduct a search or seize your firearm per FS 901.051.
 
#8 ·
I'd be willing to bet the AG thinks otherwise. Many States (Arizona too, I believe) codify the right to disarm for Officer Safety. Other State's laws can enter into AG opinions, even in absence of specific legislation. Especially when a State's Law has been challenged and subsequently upheld in a Federal Court. It is a grey area, in absence of a specific Florida precedent.

Testing it would be iffy, at best. Especially with sentiment shifting in favor of Officer safety nationally. JMHO :argue
 
#11 ·
On the same topic but slightly different, of the few times I've been stopped for open carrying, I've never been asked to disarm or surrender the sidearm during the stop.

AD
 
#13 ·
As a generalization I will comply up to a point. If they push it then I give no quarter until it is apparent the LEO is intent on going overboard with the enforcement of their perceived authority. If you honestly believe the LEO does not have PC or RAS to proceed then take them to task every time.
Obviously do it in a sane, polite manner.
Not suspected for a felony violation. IMO-Then no PC or RAS to search anything.
I have had more good interactions with LEO's than bad. Even got out of a couple tickets with a CWP.
A couple of ugly screaming matches and one where a supervisor physicaly pulled another officer away from me. 2 involved a firearm I had already given up. most of the screaming matches were with CBP, DEA or Coast Guard. Not once have I been in cuffs. Pushing back just enough is an art. Keeping your cool and asking hard questions makes them think twice about pushing the limits of their authority.
Don't start by being a Dick but when they are out of line push back.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Chris Wagoner over at Florida Carry is a trainer for LEO here in Florida and wrote a great article on this. He is in the middle of getting his training on law abiding stops into the LEO curriculum in the community colleges.

http://opslens.com/2016/12/01/police-officer-confiscate-firearm/

Best paragraph in this article.

To make the issue even more important, think of when a cop stops you for a traffic violation and you are a lawfully licensed concealed firearms carrier. I have heard that a lot of officers tell the citizen that they want to “take” the firearm into “safe keeping” during the stop, disarming the citizen by placing the firearm on their patrol unit. After the stop, they return the firearm to the citizen in various states, disassembled, emptied of rounds, placed in the trunk and so on. Again, this goes back to the idea that under what legal justification may an officer disarm someone who is not committing a crime and who is not a threat to the officer? A law abiding concealed carry citizen is not a threat to the officer just because he is carrying a firearm. So why disarm them during a traffic stop? There is no justification for it, and as such, several law enforcement agencies changed their procedures and do not want their officers taking firearms from people on the side of the road if they have a CWL. The fewer times we handle firearms unnecessarily the less likely we are to have any kind of accident, and less likely to have anyone harmed.
 
#16 ·
...and he's spot on in that paragraph.

In reality, to answer the OP, if the nice officer wants to disarm you, he's going to do it one way or the other.

The side of the road is not the place to argue your rights.
 
#15 ·
First...; why y'all get stopped so often?????? :dunno

I'm admittedly a heavy foot driver, a fan of "California stops", an addicted to yellow/orange lights, and had jobs driving for 14-16 hours, and for the love of Earth don't get stopped. The reason is IMO that I drive with my 6 senses engaged, paying attention to surroundings, checking visibility over the cars in front of me... and I know when someone 1/4 mile in front press the brakes it is usually a traffic issue or a control point :grin Also when I drove more, I could tell an unmarked car in a traffic jam :grin In the last 17 years my interactions have been marked by other situations and not traffic. Only once I was stopped during those 17 years for breaking my own rules and getting distracted. I was sent on my way then with a friendly pat on my head and the officer spluttering some nonsense about "just not today"... :grin

That said, I've always planned to tell the officer that I'm carrying (playing it by ear of course) and when asked to disarm, I'm planning to use a very calmed and logical argument as to why I don't think is a good idea.... But I admit that might work only for me. (or not). Those who know me, also know I can friendly argue with anybody. So, not sure siting laws and statutes work. Not for me for sure because I hate them all... I would use a more common sense approach. " Could you carefully take your gun out?" "Well, officer, I'm surprised... do you trust I could take my gun out safely without a ND or AD that could put us both in danger?" "I will take your gun off..." "Well, I don't feel confident enough that you could do it without putting both of us in danger... Why don't we leave it where it is and call it the day?" Something along those lines would work for ME probably.

In any case, I would never get in a yelling match with a LEO. I don't see the reason. And if I ever get stopped and asked to be disarmed, I'll let you know how it goes. I don't expect that to happen anytime soon, unless I start losing my spidey senses and long range eye sight.

Now, yesterday we had a conversation about behavior in traffic stop. specifically young black male behavior. With two moms ranting about a couple of situations with their sons, my range buddy just told us he was also stopped for speeding and di not have anything to complaint. Car off, hands on the wheel 10-2, handing the DL and CWFL to officer, officer: "you armed?" "yes, sir", "one in the chamber?" "Yes, sir. two guns on me." "take them off slowly with your left hand"... "hmm.... I'm lefty" "That's fine" Officer took them to his car while checking license, returned still loaded to back seat, "once I leave, take them back, and have a good day". My friend is old school, native Floridian with a heavy black country accent, blacker than a starless night. He lived through the worst times and still I believe him to be above all the racial nonsense. Why all encounters cannot go that way?
 
#19 ·
As I mentioned earlier, several states have codified the right to take the firearm and to my knowledge, these laws have not been struck down yet. While I agree it is not a good practice on many levels, it may, in fact, be legal.

Exigencies may dictate that action, especially if the Officer is alone. Getting an honest response (regarding being armed) doesn't always guarantee good intent and mere assertion of being licensed is not a guarantee either. There is sometimes a sixth sense involved that courts have held as, at least mitigating, for the actions of an experienced LEO. Some will dispute the legitimacy of this but courts have not, in most cases.

That said, in absence of that mitigation, disarming as a normal procedure is not a good idea, IMHO. :popcorn
 
#20 ·
I do live in Florida, I know if I get stopped and ask if any guns in the car I would say "YES"
If the Police Officer ask me for it, I would just hand it over telling him it is loaded and one in the chamber.
Of course I would tell the cop I have a permit.
I would comply 100% because the Law officer is probably scared to death of having a person with a loaded gun that he is about to ticket.
You can'y blame the cop for that.
Ronnie
 
#22 ·
We'll see that's where the reason to refuse would come in. The overwhelming majority of people who are armed that any cop would face are law abiding and no threat to him. If he is nervous or scared to death as you say around perfectly fine upstanding citizens who are armed than he needs to find another line of work.
 
#21 ·
Obviously if you don't disclose you're carrying then you almost certainly won't have to worry about the disarm issue. The officer has no legal right to disarm you (unless he can articulate why he thought you were both armed and dangerous), but that doesn't really matter because he's in the position to do it one way or another.

If for some odd reason I chose to disclose and the officer said he needed to temporarily take possession of the weapon for his safety, I'd probably start out with politely and deferentially asking if that's a request or a demand. If it is a demand I'd probably inquire what statute the demand was pursuant to. Either way I'm going to refuse to give it to him and tell him if he wants to take it I won't stop him but I won't assist him either. That and that I don't consent to any searches or seizures, and that remedies for all adverse conduct will be pursued to the fullest extent.

Honestly I'm enough of a people person that I can't imagine any encounter going that far south unless the cop was just a complete power tripping ass. And if I just so happen to end up with that cop then I'm going to take my time and have fun with him.
 
#28 ·
Barbie cops stop people all day long. May be forever and a day for you and I between stops. But the cops do it all day.
I didn't say that the majority of people they stop have guns. I said the majority of people that have guns who do get stopped are honest folks like you and me. I think a higher percentage of people who are in possession of a gun during a traffic stop are again like you and me, kind and courteous and go about our way.

I do not think it the opposite where the majority of people who do have guns in their cars when stopped are criminals.
The simple percentage of good gun owners compared to bad gun owners should vastly outweigh each other and dictate my theory to be correct no?
 
#32 ·
The simple percentage of good gun owners compared to bad gun owners should vastly outweigh each other and dictate my theory to be correct no?
Do you know that percentage? I'm curious if someone has it.

I mentioned good gun owners in Florida (1 in 20 licensed I took it to 3 in 20 considering the double for those without licenses).

Don't you agree that the percentage of criminals owning guns is higher (I suggested >10 in 20 been conservative in numbers).

The percentage of criminals against law abiding people of course is small, BUT the interaction with police will always be higher for criminals type than law abiding people. In fact, law abiding people mostly will only interact with the police once in 10 years and only for traffic stop. You realize than being stopped for speeding is not normal or common for most law abiding (or alert) people.

And no, cops do not stop people all day long. Those covering traffic do. Most cops (and that's what I was explaining) in urban areas respond to calls... the traffic just happens to happen.
 
#38 ·
I must scream "cop" because I have never had a bad stop. Not many either. Maybe the Marine Corps tags and FOP frame help.

Ya think? :rofl
 
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