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Application Suspended Due to a NYS Violation?

21K views 78 replies 15 participants last post by  StoneCloud 
#1 ·
I wanted to get some input on this before moving forward on supplying documentation. I also figured that since a lot of people move here from NYS, hopefully it can help someone else too.

So I applied in person for my license on July 5th, 2016. DOA Website said I was "pending" until yesterday. The message yesterday reads:

"We have completed our initial review of your application. The background check results we received from law enforcement authorities were inconclusive, and we are attempting to verify your criminal history. You should be aware that by law the division has 90 days from the date on which we receive a complete application either to issue a license or to deny the application. Because your background check results were inconclusive, the 90-day clock has been suspended in accordance with the law while we continue to research this matter and will be lifted when we confirm the disposition does not affect your eligibility for licensure."


I called today to get more details. They told me the arrest in question is one for Disorderly Conduct in November of 2012. I obviously know which arrest they are referring to. If it helps, I served no time, no community service, paid a nominal 150 dollar fine/fee.

Now, by NYS law this is considered a violation, not a misdemeanor or felony. Also my case has been sealed. This is why they were not able to get any information from the NY court/LE agency (at least this is what I assume, please correct me if I am wrong).

I guess my questions are:

- Is a violation from out of state considered a disqualifying crime? Is disorderly conduct a disqualifying crime?
- With the case being sealed, how does that pertain to the release of that information?
- If I don't provide a Certified Disposition to them, will my license be denied or will they have to approve it due to the fact that I have no disqualifying crimes (assuming Disorderly isn't a disqualifying crime)?

It will take me a few weeks to get the certificate of disposition, and I just want to know the best way to proceed. I am new to getting a license and also new to the state of FL (only been here 3 years now).

As always I appreciate everyone's insight!
 
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#3 ·
Only thing I can figure is they are worried it is one of these:

  1. Having adjudication withheld or sentence suspended on a felony or misdemeanor crime of violence unless three years have elapsed since probation or other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled.
  2. A conviction for a misdemeanor crime of violence in the last three years.

As far as what they do if they can't get an answer to the disposition, I have no idea. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the arrest record was expunged so they found the arrest, but can't get the final outcome, and that just doesn't work for them. Records get sealed for a reason and if the other state responds that the records are sealed then I would think that would be sufficient evidence that the matter is conclusively resolved and nothing is pending. Certainly they run into cases where the record has been sealed all the time - so I'm sure this isn't new.

Personally I'd call and talk to them and just tell them exactly what you said here. It was a citation, not a misdemeanor or felony, you paid the fine and the case has been sealed. If you have any documentation that shows what the original charge was, then they could look that up and see that statute is a non-criminal statute and that might be the end of it. But again, this is all speculation on my part.

In any event it sounds as though the original offense is not disqualifying. And even if it was a "misdemeanor of violence" (which it doesn't sound like it was) it was more than 3 years ago.

Good luck. I'm looking forward to updates as to how this goes for you. It may very well help others in a similar situation in the future know what to expect.
 
#4 ·
Thank you for the advice! I will call them back today and explain that. When I called earlier I only got the reason and then started looking into it.

The same reasons you stated are why I was confused. The offense was outside of the 3 year requirement and also doesn't constitute as a disqualifying crime.

I will keep the thread updated on how things are coming along. I am waiting for a call back from a lawyer to arrange getting the Certificate of Disposition. Great part is they only charge $100 plus the $10 court fee for NY to get it to you. Way better than flying up there to get it in person (which is the only other way to get it).
 
#5 ·
They suspended your application because they cannot verify the disposition of the arrest.

No, DC is not a disqualifying factor.

You can provide them with the disposition and move your application along, or you can wait the 180 days and see what happens. The legally cannot deny based upon inconclusive data. If they have no disqualifying info, they must issue...depends on how long you want to wait.
 
#6 ·
Thank you for that info, good to know about the 180 day "clock" if you will.....


I definitely don't want to wait that long, I'm hoping the lawyer can get the cert to me in a week's time. The DOA said to mail it to Tallahassee, hoping there is a faster way to get it to them once I have it. I may overnight it to speed things along.
 
#7 ·
There are two types of "suspension", and people get them confused - especially when they try to marry it up to the 90-day issue-or-deny requirement.

Your application has only been in for about 50 days.
The 90-clock suspension only means that your file was routed over to their internal "Verification" department.
It could sit there for awhile before anyone looks at it. Last I heard was 120-150 day processing times.

Now, if FL Dept of Agri can't figure it out, they will eventually send you a letter in the mail. (I got mine at Day-147).
This will be the "Suspension of Application Processing" letter -- and all this means is they sent your file to FDLE to review and reply.
At this point, even if you do nothing, your license may still grant. But it will take some time.
If you are eligible, Florida is a SHALL-ISSUE state. So, don't sweat it. And, definitely try to muster up some patience - you're going to need it!!
I won't get into the (4) options in the "processing" letter, because all you'd be doing is contesting something that isn't a core issue anyway.

In my opinion, the 90-day thing means NOTHING.
There is no recourse if they miss that deadline. None!
Furthermore, the law is worded such that "issue/deny" is based off of a receiving a completed APPLICATION. It doesn't say anything about an incomplete background check (which isn't even something you submitted in your application). But, what's the point in arguing it with them? They are not going to issue the license until they confirm your eligibility.

Most likely, your background check shows a charge or arrest that is missing an offense level (i.e., felony vs. misdemeanor), or is missing the case disposition (probation, guilty, not-guilty, dismissed, etc..)

I encourage you to obtain this info yourself and send it in. Certified copies only -- they will not accept photocopies.
You can obtain court records far faster than either FDACS or FDLE.

BTW, I received my CCW in-hand on Day-189.
My delay was caused by missing quite old case disposition on my background. (i.e., State Attorney refused to prosecute.)

Best of luck!!
They're busy, busy, busy - so just give it time! (Not that you have any real choice in the matter.)
 
#9 ·
Most likely, your background check shows a charge or arrest that is missing an offense level (i.e., felony vs. misdemeanor), or is missing the case disposition (probation, guilty, not-guilty, dismissed, etc..)

I encourage you to obtain this info yourself and send it in. Certified copies only -- they will not accept photocopies.
You can obtain court records far faster than either FDACS or FDLE.

BTW, I received my CCW in-hand on Day-189.
My delay was caused by missing quite old case disposition on my background. (i.e., State Attorney refused to prosecute.)
I'm in the processes of getting the certified copies myself. Now once I do that and send it in, will the process be sped up at all, or will it still just "sit in verification" as you mentioned regardless?

I'm asking because if it would help me haha I would be willing to overnight the documents to them.

Yes patience is a virtue, and I can't wait to get the license however, in no rush if that makes any sense. If it takes 6 months as you said that is what it takes. There is nothing we can do and I'm ok with that.


Also, what is funny is when I called them I asked the rep if I don't supply the documentation do they continue to verify and she said no that it won't be accepted....she definitely didn't seem like she knew the procedure very well
 
#12 ·
I got tangled in a similar situation when I applied two years ago. I had an arrest from over 25 years ago in MD. Pre trail diversion, pay a fine, be good 6 months. Case dismissed. Fl saw the arrest, but not a case disposition. I wrote the clerk of courts in Md and got a letter stating the case was too old, and the records are gone. I sent that to FL and stated that I had not been convicted of anything, and short of any evidence I was, I respectfully request the application be approved.

It was and it didn't take 180 days to get there.

You'll make it.
 
#42 ·
Update:

So the Lawyer is mailing the dispositions today ( I guess I will get them Monday). They will then be forwarded right to Tallahassee. Now any advice on how long after they receive the dispositions that I should call the DOA.

Or simply wait and watch the website for an update on my file?
 
#43 ·
You won't be getting anything on Monday...Labor Day! :grin

Once they have the docs, it won't take long to move your app forward. I'd just watch the website.
 
#44 ·
Make sure you type up a letter noting your application number on them. CYA and make copies.
 
#45 ·
Lol, you want complications? Be an undercover, using a "cover name" and get "arrested and printed" to facilitate your cover.

Fast forward thirty years and your prints come back with a different name , multiple felony arrests on record and watch the gun store clerk's eyes go wide before you present the FBI DOCUMENT ! :rofl
 
#46 ·
Sounds like fun (at the gun store)! :rofl
 
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#56 ·
Alrighty Guys/Gals:

So here is the Most recent transcript from my chat with them today:

9/16/2016, 13:00:56 Agent 8041 says
Our mail takes about 4 weeks for the mailroom to update it to our system.

9/16/2016, 13:01:55 Agent 8041 says
R. Jackson is our head mail carrier.

9/16/2016, 13:02:36 "Stonecloud" says
Ok. I just wanted to make sure that it was received and wanted to see if there is anything further required.

9/16/2016, 13:03:23 Agent 8041 says
Any response that comes in takes about 60 days to be reviewed. The disposition was the only thing that was required. Is there anything else that I can help you with today?


Needless to say I'm annoyed. I completely understand they are busy so I'm not expecting instant turn around, but is there any way to get them to review this quicker?

AHHH!!!! :dunno
 
#58 ·
Technically, that means they can't tell you anything! :zip

(Sorry, just the requisite kneejerk archetypal response to the statement.)

StoneCloud, one way to speed it up would be to spend the money you saved on something other than a carry gun.
Murphy's Law dictates that the CCW will be in your mailbox as soon as you can't undo the sale.
 
#60 ·
I am definitely being patient and will keep updating as things change.

And yea the only thing they can tell me is it takes 60 days to process incoming documents. I'm hoping maybe if i call them to ask and "make sure I sent the right thing." Maybe upon checking they will just approve on the spot :laughing
 
#69 ·
Look at it this way...
It's 90 days to make a decision.
Nobody ever said they had to be consecutive days.

Incidentally, this might also explain the "two-minute warning" in NFL football, which runs much longer than two minutes!
Either that, or it justifies the networks inserting one last round of commercials!
 
#67 · (Edited)
For Florida state agencies with permitting responsibilities; suspending the time clock is an action usually requested by the applicant, because they need more time to provide additional information necessary for the permit application to be considered compete.

Agencies cannot begin to evaluate a permit application until it's deemed complete (because they don't have the info needed to properly evaluate the app), and will send a RAI (request for additional information) that they need to be able to consider the application complete.

I have seen problem applicants refuse to waive the time clock, and request that their application be considered complete.

At that point (unless the permitting agency does have enough information available to process the application); the application will be denied.

When a pemit application is denied, the applicant has nohing, and goes back to square one. That means that, if they want a permit; they must submit a new permit fee and application, and the permitting process (and time clock) starts all over again.
 
#71 ·
first let me start by saying I'm pretty sure I'm wrong in this assessment but here it goes:

So I can call and ask the DOA to consider my application complete right now and start my clock again immediately? Theoretically since they have all the documents they need (since I sent them in weeks ago) are then then forced to move forward with my approval within the allotted and "INFAMOUS" 90 days?

I personally will not do that just for the record, I'm just going to wait it out as I don't feel like being a nuisance to the agency. I also know that when it comes to the gov agencies you just have to wait....and wait..... However I'm wondering if my above scenario would be true and help an application.
 
#68 · (Edited)
When I worked in a regulatory agency for the State of Florida close to 30 years ago, our licensing section negligently issued an occupational license to someone in a highly regulated industry that had a murder conviction on his record. In that particular industry, a violent crime conviction was a statutorily prohibited conviction for licensure. The applicant honestly disclosed the conviction on the application, and while the person receiving the application initiated the proper process (that should have led to a license denial), the next cog in the licensure wheel dropped the ball, and the license automatically printed at day 90. Because he had honestly disclosed the conviction, we could do nothing... the license was issued.

My guess is that given how many licenses the state issues, that kind of stuff probably happens all the time, there's just no reason for the public to ever hear about it.

We routinely stopped the 90-day clock for incomplete applications, or illegible fingerprints. We could not stop the 90-day clock for FDLE/FBI taking too long to process good fingerprints, though. I believe the proverbial 90-day clock is a Florida Statutes Chapter 120 - Administrative Procedures Act provision, which governs how agencies promulgate rules, and enforce authority provided in other sections of statute, and it lays out how the processes and notices that allow the public to interact with and influence those agencies.
 
#70 · (Edited)
Exactly. :thumsup

And, if a RAI is sent to the applicant, that starts another time clock; where the applicant has 30 days to respond.

The when the agency receives the Response to the RAI; the agency has 30 days to review that response, and determine if it provided all the necessary info to deem the application complete. If not; that will generate either another RAI letter to the applicant, or a letter advising that staff is recommending denial of the permit application.

At that point the applicant will usually either request that the time clock be waived, giving the time to adequately provide the necessary information, or withdraw the permit application, so that they may re-submit it at a later date when they have all the necessary information (that way they don't lose their permit fee).
 
#75 ·
Two things.

The 90-day thing in Chapter 120 is your friend. It keeps state government from dragging you out indefinitely by forcing them to decision/action.

The adages, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil" & "You get more flies with honey than vinegar," really are true. As long as the squeak is not obnoxious and abusive, it brings the issue to the attention of paper processors, or literally gets it put on top of the stack. People that work in state government are generally regular folks. The people that work at the Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services are even more regular folks, as people tend to be drawn to agencies they identify with, or maybe more likely, where they know people and have an inside track on a job. I'll just say that there are lots of pickup trucks in the parking lot over there, and many of the ladies wear cowboy boots, too. <---- :thumsup
 
#76 ·
Two things.

The 90-day thing in Chapter 120 is your friend. It keeps state government from dragging you out indefinitely by forcing them to decision/action.

The adages, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil" & "You get more flies with honey than vinegar," really are true. As long as the squeak is not obnoxious and abusive, it brings the issue to the attention of paper processors, or literally gets it put on top of the stack. People that work in state government are generally regular folks. The people that work at the Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services are even more regular folks, as people tend to be drawn to agencies they identify with, or maybe more likely, where they know people and have an inside track on a job. I'll just say that there are lots of pickup trucks in the parking lot over there, and many of the ladies wear cowboy boots, too. <---- :thumsup
:2thumsup
 
#79 ·
Still no update from the DOACS.............

At this point I've almost forgotten I applied haha.

Very frustrating considering that I sent in supporting certificates of disposition over a month ago. I checked in with them 2 times in the past month with the same response, basically to check back later.

I know they get a lot of mail etc, but to take over a month and still not have it updated to my file is frustrating to say the least. Let alone the fact that I applied on July 5th. Just venting and wish there was more I can do!
 
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