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Not even one round?

9K views 40 replies 15 participants last post by  GTracer66 
#1 ·
I teach the NRA First Steps and haven't paid much attention, but, is it a fact that to complete a course in Florida now, you need not fire a weapon at all?

Please don't tell that the next thing is, or maybe already is a reality, you can complete a course on-line?
 
#2 ·
What makes you think it is no longer a requirement? It certainly was at least a year ago this time, when I took a "multi-state" course to qualify for 3 different CCW permits (FL, AZ, and UT). The course did have a live fire portion, and it was only for FL requirements, not the others.
 
#3 ·
Ambusher, you have asked a completely innocent question and I just want to forewarn you that this thread will get ugly if it stays open.

I'm going to answer your question first. The Florida Statutes appear to intend to require instructors who teach a CCW course that purports to satisfy the licensing requirement to observe the student safely handle and discharge a firearm. Whether or not they do that and the extent to which they do that has been the subject of much debate. Generally speaking if you're an NRA certified instructor and you are teaching a course that you reasonably believe someone will use to apply for a FLCWFL, then you should so-observe the student and keep the records recommended in Chapter 790.06.

If you want to read more about this than you ever want to read, please go enjoy this topic.

Having said that, if you love your country, apple pie, and puppies, you will close this topic before all hell breaks loose. :rolleyes:
 
#9 · (Edited)
I teach the NRA First Steps and haven't paid much attention, but, is it a fact that to complete a course in Florida now, you need not fire a weapon at all?

Please don't tell that the next thing is, or maybe already is a reality, you can complete a course on-line?
That is correct. :popcorn

However, as Brian noted the statute appears to require an instructor, teaching certain courses, to keep records that he witnessed the student fire a firearm.

However, that is a record keeping requirement only.

There is nothing in the stature that specifies the content or duration of any course.
There is nothing in the statute that requires live fire.
There is nothing that requires documentation of live fire to be reported to DOACS.

So........







ETA: What the NRA requires/wants it's instructors to do, is completely irrelevant to the statutory requirements to obtain a CWFL in Florida.
 
#10 ·
I teach the NRA First Steps and haven't paid much attention, but, is it a fact that to complete a course in Florida now, you need not fire a weapon at all?

Please don't tell that the next thing is, or maybe already is a reality, you can complete a course on-line?
Why not?

Nothing in the statute prohibits it, as long as it is conducted by a NRA or Florida Certified instructor.
 
#11 ·
OMG, please don't go there. You know I agree with you, but you also know where this will lead.
 
#13 · (Edited)
ambusher,

Only because you asked I am going to post the portion of 790.06 that some say requires live fire.

790.06...
a photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; or an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught said course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph; any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;

You may want to look at the NRA policies on this matter. They have published several guidance documents that hint that if you use your NRA instructor number to sign a completion certificate, you will loose your NRA certification if you don't require live fire. But of course they offer the HFS course that does not require live fire.

But never confuse Florida Statutes with NRA policies.

And of course Fl accepts hunter safety courses from all 50 states and I understand that some do not require live fire and if they do it is with a long gun.

It is all very confusing.

Ethically, if I was an NRA instructor I would never provide a certificate that I thought might be used to apply for a FLCWFL, and not observe the student safely handle and fire a handgun.
 
#18 ·
The place I took my class was a bit of a joke, fire two rounds from a 22 revolver into a bullet trap. The class went over basic safety and general laws. My wife took it at a different place fire. She was required to fire single handed, off handed and put a certain number of rounds on target before they would sign her off. Depends on where you go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#30 ·
Someone back a ways said something about the NRA concealed weapons class. There isn't one. There are a couple courses that are acceptable to agencies that issue. They both require firing a pistol/revolver.....ain't that something !
You are correct that there is no such class as an "NRA concealed weapons class". That said, any NRA course that involves discharging a firearm - even a rifle or shotgun - is acceptable to DOACS. It doesn't have to be a handgun.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Since it appears that we are at least trying to be precise once again, and just for the sake of discussion, because it is ultimately going to be for the courts to decide - unless the legislature clarifies 790.06...

The NRA has a course that is entitled Home Firearms Safety. The course requires no live fire.

790.06 says a applicant must:

(h) Demonstrates competence with a firearm by any one of the following:
2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

So it appears that the applicant can demonstrate competency by completing the NRA Home Firearms Safety course.

But, later in the statute appears (what looks like) a footnote that says:

any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;

This confuses the issue.

for a moment let us assume that I compete a NRA Home Firearms Safety (HFS) course in the state of Ohio and then move to Florida. It certainly appears that I can use the HFS course to demonstrate competency, and since the Ohio NRA instructor is not bound by Florida Statutes he is not even aware that 790.06 exists, so he has done nothing wrong.

In the eyes of the NRA the instructor did nothing wrong.

So, is the Dept of Ag going to issue the licence???

Now in reality we don't want our students delayed by questions from the FL Dept of Ag and CS so it would be appropriate to require our student to safely handle and discharge a firearm and observe them and keep a record.

With that said, we are never going to solve this here.

Each of you must make up our own curriculum as an ethical, responsible instructor.

If you are a student and don't want to experience a possible delay, make sure your course includes live fire.

I certainly don't know the answer.
:dunno

Just Sayin!
 
#32 ·
Folks are funny. One would think that a person would say to himself "I want to get a concealed permit. Someday I may have to fire the weapon. I ought to learn to do that and some of the laws, etc." And then they might say " But look, I can take a Home Firearms Safety class that tells me how to store the weapon and keep it away from little kids. I won't have to actually shoot a gun and get my hands all smelly. I think I'll take this easy one." I guess all we can do is try to educate those that are willing to listen, and keep ourselves and those we care about safe.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I have never confirmed or denied (on this forum) that I am a NRA instructor. If I was an NRA instructor I would be proud to say, that I have encouraged the CCW students (who fire a minimum of 15 rounds) but have very little (or no) experience with rifles and shotguns, to return for the HFS course. At the end of the HFS course they know that they can pick up any common pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun and make it safe. It also provides a covert opportunity to help those who support the 2A but don't understand why anyone needs an assault rifle, to learn the error in their ways. Since they have already passed their CCW course and don't need to shot, it is a very relaxed/no jeopardy atmosphere.

The NRA Certificate is a good carrot that one could hold up at the end of the CCW course as a reason to return.

So, there is a purpose for the NRA HFS course.

Just Sayin!
 
#34 ·
A couple of great posts there, TitleIIToyLover! :thumsup
 
#35 ·
HFS would also be useful for people who may not own a firearm but don't want to be wholly ignorant of them either. I was looking through the HFS class listings for Florida and saw one where the instructor was only charging $10 (the going rate seems to be $100) but in the comments section it said "Navarre Mommies Group Only". Perhaps that's a group of women (many of whom may not even own a gun) that decided they wanted to know about gun safety in case they ever come across one. They don't necessarily need to know how to shoot in order to achieve their goals. The HFS class doesn't need a gun range and can be conducted just about anywhere. At the end they get an NRA certificate that says they took a safety class. Sounds perfect for them (if the group's composition and goals are as I hypothetically inferred).
 
#41 ·
Took course about a year ago. Lecture cover the law & some suggestions. Then handed a loaded 22 to shoot at an indoor target at a range of about 6 or 8 ft. Since I didn't shoot myself or the instructor, so I passed. Was given a blank form to put my name on.
As my friend left, we were shaking our heads especially since my friend had recently paid $200 for a gun course in HI.
When I got home, I scanned the certificate, erased my hand written name & rrplaced with a nice printed script. I figured it would look more professional than my hen scrstching. They tell you to submit a copy of the certificate anyway, so it's not like the expect original signatures anyway.
 
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