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Online CCW classes

56K views 52 replies 26 participants last post by  Hodawg 
#1 ·
Wow... as though the quickie gun show ccw classes aren't bad enough, now you can take your class online... Unbelievable!! :aarg

http://www.concealed-carry.net/index.php

"The Internet’s FIRST online firearms safety class meets Virginia law to qualify you for obtaining a Concealed Handgun Permit, on your schedule and at your convenience. No more waiting for the next class… the next class is just one click away!"

"The instruction consists of 65 minutes of our time-tested firearms safety class, followed by a 20 question test. Upon completion, simply print out your certificate and take it to your local circuit court to proceed with your application."
 
#4 ·
In Florida? No, since there is no requirement to take a 'class' here in the first place.
 
#7 ·
There is no requirement to actually fire a pistol. In fact any NRA safety class qualifies, including this one:
Name : NRA Home Firearm Safety Course

Short Description : Non-shooting course and teaches students the basic knowledge, skills, and to explain the attitude necessary for the safe handling and storage of firearms and ammunition in the home.
 
#10 ·
I am not a lawyer, and I do not give legal advice.

I am an NRA Certified Instructor who isn't especially interested in having my credentials revoked.

If and when you become an NRA Certified Instructor, please feel free to risk your credentials to whatever extent you see fit.

If and when you become a lawyer, please feel free to give legal advice to credentialed instructors and others as you see fit, up to and including risking your license to practice law.

Just for the record now....

Are you a licensed attorney, NRA Certified Instructor, or just the next armchair lawyer in here giving legal advice?
 
#12 ·
I have to agree with brboyer in that some of the Florida Statutes are poorly written and are subject to the short falls he has enumerated above.

As to the NRA, they have no ability to regulate anything other than NRA credentialed courses. As an NRA instructor should you author your own curriculum as to a firearms safety course which you feel follows the spirit of the Florida statutes (which you most certainly may do) and as long as you don't misrepresent it as a NRA course the NRA has no say as it's not a NRA curriculum.

I am a NRA certified Instructor as well a State Licensed Firearms & Security Instructor and a Former LEO. While I'm not an Attorney I've got more than a little experiance when it comes to dealing with Statutes.

And for the record one does not need to be an Attorney to give an opinion concerning interpretation of the Statutes. brboyer and I don't always agree as to such interpretations but his posts are always well researched and articulated.
 
#14 ·
Reading FSS 790.06(h), there should be little confusion. It specifically stipulates that several different firearms safety programs qualify. Some, such as the hunter safety course, require no actual weapons firing for satisfactory completion of the course. Others do. The record keeping clause seems to make it a requirement that the records of the training be kept and that the person attesting to completion of the course, by a specific student, personally witness their performance and be able to attest to it, including the actual firing of the weapon if such is required by the course. Any confusion generated by the wording of this clause, could be easily remedied either in court or by a simple act of the legislature to add the words "if required by the course" at the end.

In the case of an internet safety course, this might prove problematic. While it would be relatively simple to attest to the recorded performance of a student, the ability to attest to the identity of the person participating in the internet course could be a problem.
 
#17 ·
The NRA has sent out firm warnings to the NRA Instructors that Firearm Safety in the Home does not qualify for CCW Instruction.
 
#18 ·
They are mistaken. The statute is clear.
Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor
 
#19 ·
In Jon H. Gutmacher's book on pages 69-70, items 2, 3, or 7 then under F.S. 790.06(2)(h) it says you have to be verified by the instructor that you "safely handled and discharged the firearm". He says this can be technically a "one shot" requirement. NRA instructors are required by the NRA to have the student use an actual firearm with live ammunition. Number six gives me some pause. I know a lot of people who served in the military that never held a pistol in their hands. That does worry me a bit at times!
 
#20 ·
In Jon H. Gutmacher's book on pages 69-70, items 2, 3, or 7 then under F.S. 790.06(2)(h) it says you have to be verified by the instructor that you "safely handled and discharged the firearm". He says this can be technically a "one shot" requirement. NRA instructors are required by the NRA to have the student use an actual firearm with live ammunition. Number six gives me some pause. I know a lot of people who served in the military that never held a pistol in their hands. That does worry me a bit at times!
Perhaps, but that is simply a requirement the NRA reportedly imposes on it's certified instructors when conducting NRA certified courses. It does not represent the legal requirement of 'competency with a firearm' as required in 790.06.
There is no legal requirement to discharge a firearm to qualify for a CWFL in Florida.
 
#23 ·
There is a state requirement that you have to shoot a gun. And not an air pistol or airsoft gun. I have seen instructors certificates confiscated and rejected applications from teh state. I am a CCW Instructor at a local gun range. In addition to being a NRA Training Counselor.
 
#26 ·
There is a state requirement that you have to shoot a gun. And not an air pistol or airsoft gun. I have seen instructors certificates confiscated and rejected applications from teh state. I am a CCW Instructor at a local gun range. In addition to being a NRA Training Counselor.
Can you provide a citation for this so-called requirement?
 
#24 ·
So what is the answer after all the spinning...are we not required to shoot to obtain CCW? I have not seen, or know of any courses that do not make you fire a few rounds after the classroom instruction?? Hey, I got mine, so really does not matter, but just wonder what is the bottom line?
 
#25 · (Edited)
This section seems to be the sticking point:

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; or an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught said course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph; any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;
So, that bolded part.... when all is said and done is that only referring to instructors of courses in subparagphs 2, 3, & 7, OR referring to an instructor of ANY course recognized by Florida? If that's only referring to instructors of courses mentioned in 2, 3 & 7 then there's not technically a statute requirement that you fire the gun if you use one of the other training course methods.

And from I see online the FL Hunter safety courses do have a 3hr range component to them.

Also, to play devil's advocate a little bit: If you don't like the idea of an online or any course that doesn't require live fire, then do you also not like the idea of constitutional carry or the thought that states requiring "licensing/permitting" is already infringing on 2A rights?
 
#27 ·
On-Line or In-Person?

Anyone that would trust their life to an on-line CCW course, or take a course where a firearm is not fired, or think that firing one-shot in a bucket or range is proper training is someone heading for disaster.

NRA has made it clear:

The National Rifle Association of America currently has no online firearm training courses. All of our firearm training courses (Home Firearm Safety excluded) have a shooting component on a range. Some NRA certified instructors have created online firearm training programs, and have issued certificates to individuals that take their courses, using the title NRA Certified Instructor. Under no circumstances may NRA’s
name or your NRA credentials be associated with any online firearms training course. If NRA’s name or your NRA credentials are associated with a course, you must, among other things, actually work with the students, face-to-face, to allow you to evaluate whether they perform the safe operation of a firearm, and shoot with a sufficient level of skill. This policy applies to any course which might result in issuing any certificate that bears the title of NRA Certified Instructor, or if the course is associated in any way whatsoever with a certification issued by the NRA. While NRA allows NRA Certified Instructors to use their titles in association with courses that are not NRA courses, as long as they make a very clear disclaimer that such courses are not NRA approved, the use of a disclaimer is not sufficient to allow you to use NRA’s name or your NRA credentials in connection with an online course. In other words, your NRA credentials and the NRA’s name, trademarks, titles identification numbers, etc. may not be associated with any online firearm training course, regardless of whether there is a statement that it is not an NRA course. We have even found online courses with titles such as: “NRA CCW Course,”NRA Home Defense,” and so on, that are not NRA sanctioned courses. NRA Instructors are not authorized to create a title of a course which includes “NRA,” “National Rifle
Association,” or any other wording that makes a non-NRA course appear to be an NRA course.
Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials. If you have any questions concerning this policy, please contact the NRA Training Department.

If you are an NRA Instructor, follow the policy or risk loosing your credentials.
 
#30 ·
ZACTLLLYYYY JIMD


Title XLVI
CRIMES
Chapter 790
WEAPONS AND FIREARMS
View Entire Chapter
790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm.—
(1) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services is authorized to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons or concealed firearms to persons qualified as provided in this section. Each such license must bear a color photograph of the licensee. For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie, but the term does not include a machine gun as defined in s. 790.001(9). Such licenses shall be valid throughout the state for a period of 7 years from the date of issuance. Any person in compliance with the terms of such license may carry a concealed weapon or concealed firearm notwithstanding the provisions of s. 790.01. The licensee must carry the license, together with valid identification, at all times in which the licensee is in actual possession of a concealed weapon or firearm and must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Violations of the provisions of this subsection shall constitute a noncriminal violation with a penalty of $25, payable to the clerk of the court.
(2) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall issue a license if the applicant:
(a) Is a resident of the United States and a citizen of the United States or a permanent resident alien of the United States, as determined by the United States Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services, or is a consular security official of a foreign government that maintains diplomatic relations and treaties of commerce, friendship, and navigation with the United States and is certified as such by the foreign government and by the appropriate embassy in this country;
(b) Is 21 years of age or older;
(c) Does not suffer from a physical infirmity which prevents the safe handling of a weapon or firearm;
(d) Is not ineligible to possess a firearm pursuant to s. 790.23 by virtue of having been convicted of a felony;
(e) Has not been committed for the abuse of a controlled substance or been found guilty of a crime under the provisions of chapter 893 or similar laws of any other state relating to controlled substances within a 3-year period immediately preceding the date on which the application is submitted;
(f) Does not chronically and habitually use alcoholic beverages or other substances to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired. It shall be presumed that an applicant chronically and habitually uses alcoholic beverages or other substances to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired if the applicant has been committed under chapter 397 or under the provisions of former chapter 396 or has been convicted under s. 790.151 or has been deemed a habitual offender under s. 856.011(3), or has had two or more convictions under s. 316.193 or similar laws of any other state, within the 3-year period immediately preceding the date on which the application is submitted;
(g) Desires a legal means to carry a concealed weapon or firearm for lawful self-defense;
(h) Demonstrates competence with a firearm by any one of the following:
1. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency of another state;
2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
3. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;
4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
5. Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;
6. Is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or a county or municipality of this state, unless such license has been revoked for cause; or
7. Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor;
A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; or an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught said course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph; any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;


HE or SHE Observed the student safely handle and Discharge.........Maybe I'm missing something but discharge means shoot. So Home firearm safety doesn't qualify.
 
#33 ·
But the law says that any NRA Firearm Safety class qualifies. The law says that the instructor must keep records stating that he observed the student discharge a weapon. So that would be like saying that it is illegal to teach the Home Firearm Safety course in the state of Florida unless you include firing a weapon as part of the class.
 
#35 ·
As brboyer stated earlier in this thread, the statute never states that the applicant must fire a firearm only that the applicant must:

(h) Demonstrates competence with a firearm by any one of the following:
2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

and that

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph

I think we all agree that the intention was for the applicant to discharge a weapon as evidenced by the requirement for the instructor to keep records indicating that they have observed the student do so. However the statute is poorly written if that was the intention because it doesn't state that the applicant has to fire a gun. Since they included any and not just one which includes firing a weapon the state has left a loophole for getting a CWFL without firing a weapon even if it was unintentional.
 
#36 ·
As brboyer stated earlier in this thread, the statute never states that the applicant must fire a firearm only that the applicant must:

(h) Demonstrates competence with a firearm by any one of the following:
2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

and that

A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph

I think we all agree that the intention was for the applicant to discharge a weapon as evidenced by the requirement for the instructor to keep records indicating that they have observed the student do so. However the statute is poorly written if that was the intention because it doesn't state that the applicant has to fire a gun.
you can play legal beagle all you want, have fun, when you want your CWFL take the necessary class
 
#42 ·
Sorry to pull on an older thread. I can tell you un officially tell you that the state of florida approached the suncoast guns shows to ensure that they are doing a live fire demonstration as part of the ccw training. They currently bring a small trailer to the guns shows so people can take a few shots with a 22 short.
 
#45 ·
i went to the ft. lauderdale gun show to apply for my permit.
it was mostly going over the 790 statutes and gun safety getting our fingers printed and filling out pages of paperwork.
after all that was done we met the instructor at the local range and fired off one shot from his revolver which was already loaded and sitting on the table. all we had to do was pick it up aim it at the target which was so close you couldn't miss if you tried and put the gun back on the table . from there we picked up our certificate to send to tallahassee. i was hoping for more range time and all but that's all there was to it ......oh yea and we had to pass an easy 10 question quiz in which the instructor gave us all the answers to prior during the class.
so while i'm waiting on my permit i've asked my son to help me out at the range which he does when he has time to take me. and that was a big help for me and when we got home i asked him to show me how to properly clean the gun as well.....so at least now i'm comfortable and confident handling guns now and that is a big step for me considering i was never comfortable around guns for most of my life until just recently when i made an effort to learn....and will continue practicing my gunslinging skills as time goes on but i feel confident enough to carry and know i will be good and ready by time my permit comes. so basically it's up to the individual to get their own training after the ccwp course to train and know your rights
be safe all
 
#46 ·
The permit class that my wife and I took wasn't much more than this. We decided to take the NRA Basic Pistol class to cover gun safety. If you look up the South Florida Gun School (http://www.sflagunschool.com/), Bob Harvey (he's btbbob on the forum) was a great teacher and was able to make my wife become completely comfortable with firearms and supply all that knowledge that you missed at the gun show class. Well worth the money and the drive to West Palm.
 
#49 ·
IDPA is something that ought to be tried by almost everyone. Cowboy Action Shooting is good too but a little equipment intensive. But they are way better than me sitting in the front room thinking I would be a good shooter under stress.
 
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