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Convicted Felons & Muzzle-Loading Rifles...

13K views 21 replies 12 participants last post by  TitleIIToyLover 
#1 ·
My cousin is a convicted felon and his father told him that he could go hunting with a modern, scope-mounted, black-powder muzzle-loading rifle without any problems from FWC or the local LEOs.

Since I wasn’t sure if this was correct, I did a little research in Gutmacher’s book and he referred to Bostic v. State 902 So. 2d 225 (Fla. 5th DCA 2005) in which Judge Edward E. Hedstrom filed the following opinion:

http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2005/050905/5D03-3270.op.pdf

Quote from page 4 & 5 of the opinion:

A plain reading of the statute requires that, in order to be exempt, a firearm must be either manufactured in or before 1918 or be a “replica” thereof. A replica is defined by Florida case law as meaning a reasonably exact reproduction of the object involved that, when viewed, causes the person to see substantially the same object as the original.

The rifle possessed by the defendant, which included visible differences from an antique firearm such as a fiber optic sight, was not a “replica” of a firearm manufactured in or before 1918. Accordingly, the trial court properly denied the defendant’s motion to dismiss.

Quote from page 7 of the opinion:

"Based on the information he obtained, Bostic purchased a Thompson Center Arms Model Black Diamond muzzle-loading rifle from a Wal-Mart store. This rifle is an in-line percussion-cap, black-powder weapon. The rifle is loaded with a propellant through the muzzle and tapped into place with a ram rod. The ignition system uses a percussion cap, a copper cap with an explosive substance to cause the flame to ignite the propellant."

Quote from page 12 of the opinion:

492 So. 2d at 1053-1054
On the other hand, it says that a felon cannot rely on the fact that the firearm may be an antique or replica of an antique to escape prosecution.

After I finished reading the Judge's entire opinion, it's clear that he believes the statute to be vague enough that one jury might choose to acquit a defendant, whereas another jury might choose to convict another defendant under the same circumstances. Based on the Judge's opinion, my cousin may or may not have further legal problems if he's found in possession of a muzzle-loading rifle.

I'd like to provide my cousin with the facts before he goes hunting. The opinion was filed in May of 2005 and I was wondering if there are any recent court cases dealing with convicted felons in possession of muzzle-loading rifles? Does anybody know if there is any further clarification of Florida statute in the case of Bostic v. State of Florida?
 
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#2 ·
My cousin is a convicted felon and his father told him that he could go hunting with a modern, scope-mounted, black-powder muzzle-loading rifle without any problems from FWC or the local LEOs.

Since I wasn’t sure if this was correct, I did a little research in Gutmacher’s book and he referred to Bostic v. State 902 So. 2d 225 (Fla. 5th DCA 2005) in which Judge Edward E. Hedstrom filed the following opinion:

http://www.5dca.org/Opinions/Opin2005/050905/5D03-3270.op.pdf

Quote from page 4 & 5 of the opinion:

A plain reading of the statute requires that, in order to be exempt, a firearm must be either manufactured in or before 1918 or be a “replica” thereof. A replica is defined by Florida case law as meaning a reasonably exact reproduction of the object involved that, when viewed, causes the person to see substantially the same object as the original.

The rifle possessed by the defendant, which included visible differences from an antique firearm such as a fiber optic sight, was not a “replica” of a firearm manufactured in or before 1918. Accordingly, the trial court properly denied the defendant’s motion to dismiss.

Quote from page 7 of the opinion:

"Based on the information he obtained, Bostic purchased a Thompson Center Arms Model Black Diamond muzzle-loading rifle from a Wal-Mart store. This rifle is an in-line percussion-cap, black-powder weapon. The rifle is loaded with a propellant through the muzzle and tapped into place with a ram rod. The ignition system uses a percussion cap, a copper cap with an explosive substance to cause the flame to ignite the propellant."

Quote from page 12 of the opinion:

492 So. 2d at 1053-1054
On the other hand, it says that a felon cannot rely on the fact that the firearm may be an antique or replica of an antique to escape prosecution.

After I finished reading the Judge's entire opinion, it's clear that he believes the statute to be vague enough that one jury might choose to acquit a defendant, whereas another jury might choose to convict another defendant under the same circumstances. Based on the Judge's opinion, my cousin may or may not have further legal problems if he's found in possession of a muzzle-loading rifle.

I'd like to provide my cousin with the facts before he goes hunting. The opinion was filed in May of 2005 and I was wondering if there are any recent court cases dealing with convicted felons in possession of muzzle-loading rifles? Does anybody know if there is any further clarification of Florida statute in the case of Bostic v. State of Florida?
Your cousin would be committing a felony unless it's an actual antique manufactured in or before 1918 or a replica. Modern in-line muzzle loaders are not replicas!

As you've posted from the Bostic case, here is the important part:
A plain reading of the statute requires that, in order to be exempt, a firearm must be either manufactured in or before 1918 or be a "replica" thereof.

A replica is defined by Florida case law as meaning a reasonably exact reproduction of the object involved that, when viewed, causes the person to see substantially the same object as the original.

Applying this definition to the facts at hand, it is clear that merely having an ignition system similar to that found on an antique firearm is not sufficient to render a firearm a "replica" of a firearm manufactured in or before 1918.

The rifle possessed by the defendant, which included visible differences from an antique firearm such as a fiber optic sight, was not a "replica" of a firearm manufactured in or before 1918.
The quote from page 12 is from a dissenting judge, as such is meaningless in this case.

The appeals court upheld the lower court's determination of "Antiqueness" was correct. It never went to a jury, as it was a matter of law, not fact.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Seems like I see lots of Mausers and variations available through the web without background qualifications. Since ammo for these is still pretty readily available, they are actually what I would consider modern rifles. Since no background check is done (IF I am reading the ads correctly) it might be illegal to own one for a felon BUT they are obviously easily obtained.




"A marvel of German engineering! Take a gander at this rare breed... a Ludwig-Loewe and DWM Mauser® Rifle, ready to shoot. Just begging to be a cherished addition to your antique military firearms collection. A forgotten limited quantity was recently found in a warehouse, now ready for a new assignment after so many years.

Commissioned for the Chilean government, these unusual short-barreled versions of the Mauser 95 speak of history defending support divisions from the unexpected. Very similar models were used to great effect against British soldiers by the Orange Free State in the Second Boer War. Metal and wood both bear the marks of long service... who knows where each Rifle could have spent its service life? The possibilities are endless.

The real deal, brought 110 years into the future! These are no knock-offs. Each Rifle was manufactured by Mauser, as part of a German Military mission to the Chilean War College. Each component bears the mark of old-world workmanship. Lightweight, superbly balanced, intact with all the Mauser refinements the rest of the gun-making world still copies. A "sporting" sized military Rifle, ready to go without any modification. Here's your chance to own a genuine working piece of history!

Rare Mauser relic:

•No missing parts
•No cracked stocks
•Bolt action cocks on closing
•3-position Mauser safety
•Internal 5-rd. staggered box magazine
•Large Mauser claw extractor, the same design in use today!
•Chambered in 7 x 57 Mauser
•Barleycorn front sight
•Adjustable tangent rear sight
•21" barrel
•41" overall length, weighs approx. 8 1/2 lbs.
•Fully shootable, in good working order!
•Cleaning rod not included.
Condition: used, in good shape. An extraordinary find for military historians. Order yours ONLINE NOW! ":dunno
 
#12 ·
790.23 Felons and delinquents; possession of firearms, ammunition

According to Florida Statute 790.23 (1)(a) "It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any firearm, ammunition ... if that person has been: ... Convicted of a felony in the courts of this state."

UNLESS, (2) his civil rights and firearm authority have been restored.

I wouldn't take the chance. I agree with ron8903, tell him to use a compound bow for hunting and be on the safe side.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.23.html

790.23 Felons and delinquents; possession of firearms, ammunition, or electric weapons or devices unlawful.

(1) It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any firearm, ammunition, or electric weapon or device, or to carry a concealed weapon, including a tear gas gun or chemical weapon or device, if that person has been:

(a) Convicted of a felony in the courts of this state;

(b) Found, in the courts of this state, to have committed a delinquent act that would be a felony if committed by an adult and such person is under 24 years of age;

(c) Convicted of or found to have committed a crime against the United States which is designated as a felony;

(d) Found to have committed a delinquent act in another state, territory, or country that would be a felony if committed by an adult and which was punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year and such person is under 24 years of age; or

(e) Found guilty of an offense that is a felony in another state, territory, or country and which was punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.

(2)This section shall not apply to a person convicted of a felony whose civil rights and firearm authority have been restored.

(3)Except as otherwise provided in subsection (4), any person who violates this section commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(4)Notwithstanding the provisions of s. 874.04, if the offense described in subsection (1) has been committed by a person who has previously qualified or currently qualifies for the penalty enhancements provided for in s. 874.04, the offense is a felony of the first degree, punishable by a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
 
#13 ·
According to Florida Statute 790.23 (1)(a) "It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any firearm, ammunition ... if that person has been: ... Convicted of a felony in the courts of this state."

UNLESS, (2) his civil rights and firearm authority have been restored.

I wouldn't take the chance. I agree with ron8903, tell him to use a compound bow for hunting and be on the safe side.
I've tried to convince him, but when his father jumps in with a most bombastic retort and proclaims his "total knowledge of firearms law", he's usually swayed into believing his father rather than listening to reason. I've told my cousin that if his father is wrong, it won't be his father that's going to jail.
 
#22 · (Edited)
It's just me, but I have always taken a dim view of those city folk who show up during muzzle loading season with those new fangled in-line rifles shooting fake powder and using modern optics. And whats with that French minie ball crap. Anyone knows balls are round. And how do you type that little squigally thing over the e in mimie`ball anyway?

They make some really nice Kentucky long rifle replicas. Cabalas has some. I might let you shoot with me if you use percussion caps, but no shotgun primers allowed.

Just sayin!
 
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