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Accidental Brandishing Precautions

15K views 38 replies 24 participants last post by  netmage 
#1 ·
Ok, So, I'm a newbie to this Forum, and to concealed carry, and there might be a thread like this, but I couldn't find it, so please direct me to it if there is one.

I carry a Ruger SR9c in an inside the belt holster, in my belt, on the back, and I try my hardest to dress around the concealment, so that I don't have to worry about printing, or worse, brandishing. BUT, I've been putting some thought into (What if?) my hands are lifted and my shirt reveals the gun and an innocent civilian behind me sees the (scary) black gun tucked in my pants...
I know I could quickly explain my legality of carry, IF they asked, but most people wouldn't ask an armed man why he has a gun.

I was reading some threads about a CCW badge, but, I know that could be misconstrued as impersonating an officer, but I was curious if there could be a way around that.

Here's my idea, how about making a color copy of my CCW, laminating it, and attaching it to the clip of the holster, so that if the gun is "accidentally brandished", a color- photograph- ID would be in front of it. I think that if I were completely oblivious to concealed carry, like most citizens are, and I saw a gun with a photo ID in front of it, it would ease my concern for my safety. I would still have my real CCW in my wallet for a run-in with a LEO. I just think that this could hold-off on a person yelling "OMG HE'S GOT A GUN!"

I'm just thinking every possible situation through, and I might be missing something, let me know what you think, maybe it's a bad idea.
 
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#2 ·
Accidental exposure is NOT brandishing but should be avoided if at all possible. No ID, badge or any other ID would make it better, IMHO.

Printing is NOT illegal and accidental exposure would be judged on its own circumstances. For instance, IF you purposely show the weapon to a friend in a public place and someone else sees it you could be in trouble. However, your shirt slipping up as you reach for something on a shelf is innocent and could easily be explained to a LEO IF other circumstances are absent.

Best solution, conceal it well and never allow an accidental peek to ANYONE.
 
#3 ·
I agree nothing is going to put the sheeps mind at ease, you have a permit and if it is "accidental" then you have nothing to worry about. Ive been carrying for almost 5 years and i havent had an accidental show of my gun before. I also carry OWB and print on some occasion just because im not concerned if they can see the print or not. In my opinion i dont think you have to worry my friend and your letting it stress you out. Just carry like you normally would and have fun but more importantly be safe.
 
#4 ·
This seems to be a large gray area. Look at this post over at The High Road. Vancouver, WA, man arrested for open carry.

The police officer cited Kirby under the law that says it is wrong to carry a weapon if it “manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.”
This is probably the answer to the question, with respect to Florida law. You may be issued with a citation if your display of firearm frightens another citizen and leads them to summon law enforcement. Maybe not. Depends on the discretion of the responding officer, but if the citizen got totally freaked out as a result of your accidental display, that's your fault.
 
#7 ·
This seems to be a large gray area. Look at this post over at The High Road. Vancouver, WA, man arrested for open carry.



This is probably the answer to the question, with respect to Florida law. You may be issued with a citation if your display of firearm frightens another citizen and leads them to summon law enforcement. Maybe not. Depends on the discretion of the responding officer, but if the citizen got totally freaked out as a result of your accidental display, that's your fault.
Sorry. That, in no way whatsoever, reflects the reality of Florida Law. We don't have a 'he scared me' statute like WA does, nor do we have a 'brandishing' statute. Here's what we have:

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
Though I do my best to stay concealed at all times, if you carry long enough, you will expose that weapon at some point or another. I don't worry much about it. Yes, it's happened to me a few of times in the last 28 years...
a couple of which were in full view of LEOs...not a word said.
 
#10 ·
Sorry. That, in no way whatsoever, reflects the reality of Florida Law. We don't have a 'he scared me' statute like WA does, nor do we have a 'brandishing' statute. Here's what we have:



Though I do my best to stay concealed at all times, if you carry long enough, you will expose that weapon at some point or another. I don't worry much about it. Yes, it's happened to me a few of times in the last 28 years...
a couple of which were in full view of LEOs...not a word said.
ya beat me to it... was typing mine when you posted :drinks:bowdown
 
#5 · (Edited)
With a IWB holster, you'd have to hike your shirt pretty high to expose enough of your firearm most sheep would recognize as a firearm.

I carry OWB myself and only once have I exposed the bottom of my holster. I had just started carrying that way, and was climbing down off a set of those rolling steps you might find at Home Depot, WalMart, etc...that has the handrails. My shirt caught on the hand rail as I backed down. I had 5 other people standing around, including the wife, two other friends who don't know I carry and their 16 yr old daughter. The only one who noticed is my buddy who knows I carry. Even he said he honestly thought it was my cellphone case till I told him. Quick lesson learned, I now cover that side of my shirt tail whenever I reach, climb, bend, stoop, or burp in a way I think might blow my concealement. I'm fast becoming left handed for most that stuff. :D

But, stuff happens, and, I honestly don't worry about printing or the quickie flash much at all. People just aren't looking for it and they don't see it when it happens. :rolleyes:
 
#12 ·
AGAIN, the laws of other states are irrelevant in Florida and the Fl. statutes referred to indeed forbid the acts that other places define as "brandishing".......
790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083


In some states, you could run into trouble for printing or even accidentally having your weapon show. KNOW THE LAW WHERE YOU ARE CARRYING.

Contrary to some of the far out stuff sometimes debated here, Florida LEOs are, IMO, by and large much more accepting of CCW rights and realities than Officers in some other states. I am very careful in NC where I spend Summers and , especially in the Eastern portion of the state and larger cities, I have read about horror stories with licensed NC carriers.
 
#39 ·
AGAIN, the laws of other states are irrelevant in Florida and the Fl. statutes referred to indeed forbid the acts that other places define as "brandishing".......
790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083


In some states, you could run into trouble for printing or even accidentally having your weapon show. KNOW THE LAW WHERE YOU ARE CARRYING.

Contrary to some of the far out stuff sometimes debated here, Florida LEOs are, IMO, by and large much more accepting of CCW rights and realities than Officers in some other states. I am very careful in NC where I spend Summers and , especially in the Eastern portion of the state and larger cities, I have read about horror stories with licensed NC carriers.
This text would seem to permit 'defensive display'... i.e., unholstering, or clearing concealing clothing, and potentially drawing down on a threat...
 
#13 ·
Sorry. That, in no way whatsoever, reflects the reality of Florida Law.
We aren't talking about being arrested for brandishing. We're looking at the possibility of being cited for, as you point out in the section of FL law under review, "careless" display. If the person who sees you freaks out (no idea why they would, but people can be weird and unpredictable) and calls in "man with a gun," etc., you're tying up resources better used elsewhere and so forth. This could be deemed "disturbing the peace," perhaps.

There's absolutely no question of brandishing because the gun isn't being used to directly threaten anyone, which is entirely different. This is all theoretical, though. I'll ask one of the officers I know if he's got any experience with something like this.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I dunno. "Reasonable person" is the std. and I don't see a reasonable person calling in that circumstance. People who don't realize (or maybe just don't approve) of concealed carry here in Florida are, it could be argued "not reasonable" in light of the numbers of legally licensed concealed carriers here.

It is always to the Officer's descretion, in court, not so much.:drinks

That is to say, I don't believe a quick , shirt rides up flash of a holster is "careless" in the meaning of the statute. Whipping up your t shirt to show your friend in public on the other hand IS.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Dont sweat it so much. You would be surprised how much people dont notice.
There is a youtube video of an experiment where two guys switched places while giving information to a person and 90% of the people did not notice.
Your nervousness will draw more attention than a bulge under your shirt.


Not the one I was thinking of but still interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1aEqBaK3aM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg96RSsrXk0
 
#18 ·
I don't know I always find someone reaching for the top shelf rude and threatening :aarg

Again, seriously, STOP BEING SO PARANOID, it could get you killed. Overthinking situations is a good way to introduce delays in reaction and that is NOT a good thing. You know the law, just don't go out of your way to break it and it will not break you. Just like driving, if you are really lax sometime you may find yourself at the other end of a police interview, but most cops are not spending their time trying to find CCW violators to bust, whereas drivers THEY ARE!

Just be cool, remember concealed means concealed, relax and go about your normal activities and all will be just fine.
 
#21 ·
Thanks everyone for your well informed replies.

I suppose my nervousness spawns from my CCW class, where the instructor was beating a dead horse about "someone could call in a "man with a gun" and you could get in BIG trouble." After reading your replies, I realize that this kind of thing doesn't happen very often, and worrying about it, just makes you paranoid in a bad way. If this does happen, you all seem very confident, that if I calmly and respectably, explain the situation to a LEO, it will all be OK. This helps me alot, so THANK YOU everyone!

Also, I was a little confused about "brandishing", and even "printing".

in the definitions for Ch790, it states
(2) "Concealed firearm" means any firearm, as defined in subsection (6), which is carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the firearm from the ordinary sight of another person.

I originally took this as: if the firearm is within the ordinary sight of another person (i.e. accidentally showing, or even a keen eye for printing) then it is no longer "concealed", and is then defined as "open carry", which is illegal.

BUT, now I'm realizing that if it is intended by the individual to be concealed, such as, inside the waistband, or outside the waistband with a jacket. Then it is "concealed" "in such a manner", and an accidental showing is just as it says, accidental.

Sorry for me writing so much, I just feel like writing it out to understand it better, and maybe someone will find what they're looking for in this thread.

Thanks again everyone!
 
#24 ·
I bet that most people upon seeing an accidentally displayed firearm think one of the following:

1. That it's a cellphone, PDA, medical device, etc.
2. That the person displaying said firearm is an off duty or plain clothes cop
3. That "dangit I need to get over there and get my CWP"
4. Awww what a cute little pistol.

And I also don't believe that the person seeing the accidental display will be able to see anything other than the firearm in the hopefully very short duration in which it was displayed (i.e., they won't notice a permit or badge or other device).

Just enjoy your freedoms! :drinks
 
#26 ·
I would recomend you pick up a copy of Gutmacher's book FLorida Firearms Law, Use, and ownership 6th Edition. Read it once cover to cover then read it again every so often. The book is a much better source of information then you CCW instructor.

I have heard that Buckley is working on a book as well and if it is out I would pick that one up as well.
 
#28 ·
Fair enough, but let me ask you this (since I personally didn't have to take such a class)...does the state provide you with specific topics that have to be covered in a CCW class, or is the instructor free to make up his own course material?
 
#30 ·
I personally used the hunters safety course for my CWL, and have made it my responsibility to learn as much about gun laws as I possibly can through this forum and talking to people/LEOs, and seems to have worked well for me as in many cases I am very well informed (IMHO, not as much as some of you, but getting there) of what is ok.

As far as what was asked, I worried about that my first couple weeks carrying, and then I tried playing a game with myself. I spent a couple days just looking to see if I could spot anyone printing, assuming that at some point within a few days I would pass a few people carrying, and see if I noticed, then asked some of my friends if they didn't know I carried if they would know what it is. The average person as stated, for that matter the well trained/looking eye is still going to have a hard time noticing you have a gun, even if printing. So don't worry about that or accidentally showing, it will happen sooner or later.

o and WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!! :thumsup
 
#31 ·
I am assuming it's up to the instructor...

After speaking to a few friends who have taken the course from different instructors, it seems the information varies quite a bit.

Such as requiring to tell a LEO you are armed during a traffic stop, some people were/are being told it is absolute.

While i was told no, but corporation is advised.

The class I took was pretty much more on real life scenario's in regards to where you can/can not carry, etc... Basically put the rules into laments terms for everyone. The rest of the class was on firearm safety, the instructor had a few different types of firearms and made sure everyone understood them all.

I also remember that printing and an accidental peak was not against the law, just doesn't mean you should go about your daily life printing and giving peaks. But it does happen, just try to avoid it as much as possible.

So i am assuming it is up to the instructor, just guessing based off of what other people have told me when comparing the class.
 
#32 ·
Most of our classes are NRA lesson plans. Which exceed the FL state training requirement for concealed carry training. I just want to make one thing clear though and that is that the NRA currently has no "concealed carry class". As for what the State provides is nothing except that you insure that the student fires at least on shot and can safely load, discharge, and unload the firearm. It actually makes me rather sick sometimes at the lack of supervision for Instructors and classes that are being taught.
 
#33 ·
Most of our classes are NRA lesson plans. Which exceed the FL state training requirement for concealed carry training. I just want to make one thing clear though and that is that the NRA currently has no "concealed carry class". As for what the State provides is nothing except that you insure that the student fires at least on shot and can safely load, discharge, and unload the firearm. It actually makes me rather sick sometimes at the lack of supervision for Instructors and classes that are being taught.
I did not have to shoot when I had my training I just had to show proficiency with a firearm, basically show them I knew how to show a cleared pistol and revolver.
 
#34 ·
My "CCW class" was at a Suncoast show in the old Expo Hall. I could hear half the instructor's rant and got up during the class to take my pic and fill out paperwork. Then they walked us through the test. All I know now I learned from reading and watching videos.
I believe I have exposed my holstered weapon one time in public. On a very windy day I squatted down to look at something laying on the ground and I'm sure my shirt was blown high enough to show my Sig in an IWB. I reached up and pulled it down without making a big deal or looking around. If you look confident no one will question you. If someone does question you, leave quickly. You need to make clothing choices based on carrying a weapon. I am tall and skinny. I have a limited selection of long shirts in medium size. I tuck a little of my shirt under my belt on windy days and pull it back out when inside. I reach above my head with my left arm. I reach my right arm behind me slightly when bending or squatting. I heard an old man say "If a man has his pants on, he has a knife on him." That's how I am with a pistol. I carry everywhere while wearing anything from shorts and flip flops to a suit. Buy multiple pistols and multiple options for carrying each. Bottom line: You have a license to carry a CONCEALED weapon.
 
#36 ·
With regards to "course content" in CCW classes, although I received my training in the AF, and what I learned from my dad (Army retired) many moons ago... I'd be willing to wager that most folks attending a CCW class are not totally ignorant of firearms and the need for safety upon arrival.

Having said that, I'm sure that some folks who receive the CC training are capable of doing an immediate "brain dump" just like some folks do after receiving their driver's licenses, as evidenced by the observed number of morons on our nation's roadways.

I guess what I'm getting at is this: how safe and knowledgeable a person will be while CC'ing is directly proportional to the amount of knowledge, safety preparation and practice they receive from numerous sources along the way; whether by CCW classes, or someone taking the time to teach them properly. I can't conceive of a situation where too much training and safety prep is a negative when farting around with guns. Because, let's face it, any idiot can pull a trigger on a loaded weapon..., but it takes finesse and a certain amount of grace to conceal carry and not arouse the Yankee, anti-gun zealots that abound.

I know that I'm safe with a weapon, and I recall the anally attentive attention to detail provided by my training over the years when I'm introducing my wife, daughters, etc. to shooting. I assume nothing. Patience is a definite virtue, and constantly conveying the message that a firearm is very unforgiving if the proper respect isn't given to it is of paramount importance.

Once they've mastered the weapon, you provide the same amount of concern, proper equipment and training to help them adapt to concealed carry.
 
#37 ·
I'd be willing to wager that most folks attending a CCW class are not totally ignorant of firearms and the need for safety upon arrival.
While getting a CWFL used to be something only "gun people" obtained in the past, I don't believe that's true anymore; there are many total gun noobs getting their licenses these days (which overall is still a good thing, IMO). Heck, I even hear people who say, "I have my CWFL; what kind of gun should I get?" :rolleyes:
 
#38 ·
I had the pleasure of sitting through two classes by two different instructors.One for my license and then with my wife to get her license.The two classes were a lot different in the scope and manner of the issues and laws covered.Thankfully, this forum and the knowledge it's members have shared here have been so much more informative than either class I went through.After being a member here,I believe I could give a better class than the class my wife took.Every permit class should hand out a link to this website.
 
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