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Hornady Critical Defense ammo VS Golden Sabre HP

18K views 23 replies 14 participants last post by  45Freak 
#1 ·
I currently carry golden sabre in both my handguns but seen these rounds and would like to step ahead in technology when it comes to ballistics. I see these rounds are alot lighter but the penetration and expansion is guaranteed even through thick clothing which is a downfall to traditional hollow point rounds. What is your inputs on these new rounds compared to golden sabre HP defense rounds??
 
#3 ·
#5 ·
Concerning the "Word of Caution," do you really think that Remington, Winchester, Cor-bon, or anyone else is going to tell you that their ammo is DESIGNED to shoot through glass, car doors, or the like? NO! They are designed around velocity and expansion parameters that have little to do with the kind of things that the author of this article is obsessing about. The spokesman from Hornady gave the only kind of answer that an official corporate spokesman can give when asked a DUMB question!

I absolutely would not hesitate to use Hornady ammo based on this web posting.
 
#6 ·
wow i would need to see a video against glass,wall and sheet metal before i decide to switch from HCD ammo. The gelatin test are what cause my attention and the expansion results. Hmm going to see if i can see any videos on the TUBE about these "issues"
 
#7 ·
Concerning the "Word of Caution," do you really think that Remington, Winchester, Cor-bon, or anyone else is going to tell you that their ammo is DESIGNED to shoot through glass, car doors, or the like? NO!
Modern defense ammo, manufactured by Remington (Golden Saber), Winchester (Ranger), Federal (HST, Hydra-Shok) and Speer (Gold Dot), IS specifically designed to perform well when tested against the FBI Ammunition test protocol, which includes test events involving auto glass, auto sheet metal, and dry wall. These loads all deliver superior general-purpose terminal performance than Hornady Critical Defense.

See:
Remington (page 24) - http://www.digitaleditiononline.com/publication/?i=56808
Federal & Speer - http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
Winchester (pages 18-19) - http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/catalog/2008LawEnforcementCatalog.pdf

The spokesman from Hornady gave the only kind of answer that an official corporate spokesman can give when asked a DUMB question!
Hornady Critical Defense handgun ammunition performs POORLY in the FBI test events (it isn't good enough for general-purpose law enforcement use) - which is the exact reason why Hornady is specifically marketing it to gullible private citizens and claiming it's superior to well-designed law enforcement ammo (which is available to the general public).
 
#9 ·
Modern defense ammo, manufactured by Remington (Golden Saber), Winchester (Ranger), Federal (HST, Hydra-Shok) and Speer (Gold Dot), IS specifically designed to perform well when tested against the FBI Ammunition test protocol, which includes test events involving auto glass, auto sheet metal, and dry wall. These loads all deliver superior general-purpose terminal performance than Hornady Critical Defense.

See:
Remington (page 24) - http://www.digitaleditiononline.com/publication/?i=56808
Federal & Speer - http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
Winchester (pages 18-19) - http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/catalog/2008LawEnforcementCatalog.pdf

Hornady Critical Defense handgun ammunition performs POORLY in the FBI test events (it isn't good enough for general-purpose law enforcement use) - which is the exact reason why Hornady is specifically marketing it to gullible private citizens and claiming it's superior to well-designed law enforcement ammo (which is available to the general public).
:thumsup
 
#8 ·
To play the devils advocate.

Then why is it the the Hornaday so much more widely locally available compared the above? Just from personally experience.
 
#10 ·
For 9mm I use Corbon 115 +P at 1350 fps in my big all metal guns but for my PM9 I use Hornady Critcal Defense. I also use it in my LCP after seeing most other brands not expand reliably through such a short barrel. I read a few handgun mags and in many of the accuracy tests they do, the CD rounds provide either the best accuracy or close to it. My personal experience at the range is that the CD rounds are very accurate in the guns I shoot them with and the felt recoil is less.

I have heard over and over again that to ensure reliable expansion for you need about 1100 fps coming out of YOUR barrel and a lot of compact or smaller guns do not provide that so something like the CD ammo is worth considering. I do not think this applies to .45 ACP though but perhaps someone with factual info can chime in here.
 
#11 ·
For 9mm I use Corbon 115 +P at 1350 fps in my big all metal guns but for my PM9 I use Hornady Critcal Defense. I also use it in my LCP after seeing most other brands not expand reliably through such a short barrel. I read a few handgun mags and in many of the accuracy tests they do, the CD rounds provide either the best accuracy or close to it. My personal experience at the range is that the CD rounds are very accurate in the guns I shoot them with and the felt recoil is less.

I have heard over and over again that to ensure reliable expansion for you need about 1100 fps coming out of YOUR barrel and a lot of compact or smaller guns do not provide that so something like the CD ammo is worth considering. I do not think this applies to .45 ACP though but perhaps someone with factual info can chime in here.
In the major brands of 45acp like the speer GD's, Federals HST and Winchesters Ranger T series, the bullets are all designed to expand reliably at their stated velocities. The 45acp 230 standard vel rounds travel around 820-860 fps and do not need the higher velocities to expand reliably. That standard of 1100 fps to reliably expand is outdated with the R+D that's produced excellent loads at nominal velocities.
 
#13 ·
I use HCD in my P3AT because they expand well at the lower velocities from a P3AT. Also if I am trying to bust out windshields or shoot through much thicker than a leather jacket with a .380 I am ALREADY in Deep doo doo.

At one point I alternated HCD and ball ammo in the mag, but realized I was compromising way to much for the 1% (or less) that I might need to shoot through "armoring" with my mouse gun.
 
#14 ·
Hornady Critical Defense ammo is not bad SD ammo. It generally expands and expands well and it provides competitive penetration on soft targets. Comparing modern SD pistol ammo is a little like arguing the comparative worth of Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini. They all go fast and handle well. Which is superior in any given contest depends more on the operator than the machine. What the article refers to is Hornady's claim that the HCD round will penetrate any barrier and still expand reliably. Testing has shown that this is simply not accurate. Expansion, after penetrating hard targets [wood, auto glass, metal] proved to be iffy.

What essentially killed the use of CD ammo in law enforcement was an ignition problem. In 2008 and 2009, there were a number of reports of CD ammo failing to fire after a solid firing pin strike. It was more than likely a component problem involving the primers and I have not heard of any recent problems of this type [the primers at that time were silver and the current ones are gold colored]. But, that pretty much killed the LE market for the round. There have also been reported feeding problems in some 1911 style handguns, probably due to the composite insert in the bullet nose and the shape of the bullet.
 
#16 ·
I have all brands of ammo and I consider them all good. You cannot go wrong with Gold Dots and Golden Sabers as they are street proven. Although I am a fan of Hornady Critical Defense FTX ammo in my small PM9 and LCP, I have not seen any statistics to show if they are effective when shot into humans rather than gelatin. Same with Winchester PDX1. Some say that the Sabers are old technology but if it ain't broken don't fix it and I suspect that today's Saber is not the exact same as the one from years ago.

You did not specify caliber so to answer your question is difficult as some ammo seems better in certain calibers than others. For 9mm, non sub compact pistols, my choice is Corban 115+ at 1350 fps. According to Mas Ayoob they have an impressive street record of stopping Bad Guys. For .38 I like Nyclads for non +P and LSWC (FBI Load) for +P and both of these rounds are old school but proven. For .40 caliber I like the 165 grain Gold Dots. Once again based on the records assembled by Mas Ayoob. For .45 I use Golden Sabers, because I have used them for so long and back in the day they were THE ammo to use and Gold Dots since I have faith in them. When it comes to 9mm though I do have a lot of different brands only because I no not believe in keeping around empty magazines and have a lot of 9mm magazines so I use what is on sale or locally available to fill the extra mags. I also will shoot two mags of my self defense ammo at every range session that they gun goes to so I burn through those 20/25 round boxes quickly and it makes no sense to order in small quantities online due to the shipping charges so I will often have a mix or more of one brand than another depending on what I shot and what I have on order. I really have no problems with any of the top brands. I do not count on expansion, being an old hardball shooter because semi pistols were not reliabile with hollow points in the old days, so I go for shot placement. If the bullet expands so much the better.
 
#17 ·
The concept makes sense, I shoot pro reloads in IDPA, carry Ranger T 147g non +p, in case some individual shows up who requires shooting. Would I use Critical defense? If I carried a Slim Taurus 109/Kel Tec 9mm, etc. But as I only carry my Glock 19? Mute point.
 
#18 ·
go to the 1911 forum and do a search on Critical Defense. Past history of primers failing to ignite, ect. Wilson Combat recommends this ammo not be used in their guns, as it feeds poorly. By the way, this is the ONLY ammo they suggest not using, which IMHO is a pretty strong indicator.
 
#22 ·
Pretty strong indicator that it does not work well in THEIR guns. I have had plenty of guns that did not like one brand of ammo or another and even a few that recommended you only use only one brand or not use some brands. Has nothing to do with the ammo but more to do with the fit between the ammo and gun. When you look at ammo in the same caliber you will notice that some are actually longer than others, have longer bullets, etc. so that they may work well in one gun but not another. I am sure that you heard not to jump to conclusions before. :)
 
#19 · (Edited)
Critical Defense ammo.... It would not be my choice in an auto pistol as there are much better proven loads out there.
I no longer use .45 as a carry gun,just 9mm.I prefer the proven loads mainly the HST( excellant performance all around,and holds the jacket well for a non bonded bullet.)
Winchester RA9T( This 147 grainer has a proven track record in a lot of police shootings AND a large number of civilian defensive shootings as well.)
If these two were not available I'd go to the same brands in the 124+P,or the 124+P in the Gold Dot(another street proven load) or the Golden Sabre in 124+P or 147 gr standard.

HOWEVER.....I carry a J frame often as a BUG.It's an airweight. It's a back against the wall,up close and personal weapon to extricate myself from a really close,bad situation.
I carry wadcutters. WHAT? PUNY WADCUTTERS?. Well...let's put this into prospective regarding the primary use of this particular weapon.
Wadcutters offer good penetration,period,especialy at contact or near contact distances,and cut a full caliber size wound track in the process. Expansion has been a problem in 2 inch barrels,even with the old FBI semi wadcutter load. If I need this gun in these circumstances,I need it to work right now. Fast rounds of wadcutters from an airweight is easy. But,then we have the problem of a reload if needed. I hope and pray it never is.
Wadcutters,due to their shape,are difficult to reload with any speed by hand,or with a speed strip,or even with a jet loader,which is what I use.
The "reload" needs to have a normal bullet profile for ease of reloading,if necessary. The best rouind for me is standard pressure DPX.The DPX rounds work well,period.They are IMO ridiculously expensive,so I don't do a lot of shooting with them.
I believe that the Critical Defense FTX bullet works well in soft targets,giving adequate penetration,esp at extreme close range,and decent expansion,more so than most .38 rounds from a 1 7/8" barrel,with the exception of the DPX,or any of the other brands loaded with the Barnes copper X bullet.
I would,and probably eventually will,get some of these to carry in the jetloaders. 110 gr standard pressure is easily controllable at speed in an airweight gun.
They can be considered for this use,but as stated would not be my first pick at all for a main carry pistol.
 
#20 ·
Doc,

I've got both J frames loaded with Buffalo Bore 150 grain lead wadcutters myself. The wadcutter creates a lot of wound damage and the sharp edge cuts like a cookie cutter in dough. Subsequently, more bleeding as the wound isn't as prone to sealing/closing in on itself. :thumsup
 
#21 · (Edited)
Amen to that Brownie. Even with all the advances in ammo,I still think the wadcuttter is the best close range fighting load for the little snubs. It even gives the same performance thru the 4 layer denim,as it's not dependant on expansion.
One again,what's old is new again. The BB wadcutters are tough to beat.

Conceal007,got a little off track there.I don't think you specified what weapon you are using the Golden Sabers in,but in the testing I did with 9mm's,the Golden Saber performed well in both weights,147 and 124+P bonded.
Dr.Gary Roberts has done some recent testing of 124gr.+P loads,including the Golden Sabers,and as a result has added this round to his list of recommended defense loads. The 147 gr. was already there. The .45's work well too,so you're in good hands with the Sabers,if they're accurate in your gun.
 
#23 ·
Up until recently I was taught to use wad cutters in my snubbies going back 40 some years. I only started using hollow points about 10 years ago. I now comprimised and use the old FBI load or Nyclads with soft lead. They expand well but I would not have a problem with wad cutters. Want to hear something funny? Actually read a post where a guy was praising the new JHP ammo he bought. It was the "in" ammo on his forum and he was excited to tell everyone that is worked so well because he could see that they left bigger holes in his paper target. :) Give that man a sign. :)
 
#24 ·
Reviewed some police photos today of a perp in Lauderdale area who B&E into an dwelling owned by a LEO. Guy took two rounds of .38 out of 4" bbl. at approx. 18", one to xyphoid area and one to lower abdomen after reaching for defenders gun. He only made it out the front door and collapsed DRT. Amount of blood loss shows quick kill. Most say .38 is not a good SD round but shot placement can be key and at most SD events at bad breath distances, anything coming out of the barrel with good shot placement is going to be effective. Those photos and responding officers actual account of approaching scene and hearing two shots and 1 min. passage of time to front door with BG running out and dropping is proof enough for me.
 
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